Hissatsu: Kaiten

[Gemina]

I absolutely understand where you are coming from, but complexity can make something feel rewarding; like solving a puzzle.

There's nothing complex about Kaiten, and your defense is, "It looks cool." They honestly could [should] bake the animation into Iaijutsu skills to eat up the cast time.

If complexity is your angle, I would be more concerned about how a lot of SAM's skillset feels horrendously tacked on. The job going into ShB played very well, with few but livable drawbacks. I wasn't the biggest fan of Tsubame, particularly due to it being a use it or lose it skill, which drives me bat-S. Same goes for Senei (I won't get into a 120s CD also consuming kenki being lame AF). Now they have x2 charge Meikyo, x2 charge Tsubame, and a follow up to Ogi, which is another use it or lose it. You'd think with all these additional charges, that SAM would be the king of sting, but severe potency adjustments saw to it that this did not happen, so now SAM has to work harder for a damage output that doesn't justify it.

In short, fun was shunned to add complexity to this job. My issue with Kaiten is it isn't even one of the current issues SAM has. Consolidating Guren and Senei and/or Shoha/Shoah II into a single skill would have been a FAR more effective way to reduce the button bloat SAM has. Losing Seigan as a third eye skill also needlessly took away from the more complex/intricate portion of SAMs kit.

In short, it took less than one expansion to turn SAM from one of my favorite jobs, to a bench warmer. That's how it goes with MMOs though, and I find it is better to invest based on a how a job plays rather than what the job is. I know that is probably the worst news for anyone who mains any particular job due to a sentimental value it might have, but that is how the winds blow in FFXIV regardless.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

There's nothing complex about Kaiten, and your defense is, "It looks cool." They honestly could [should] bake the animation into Iaijutsu skills to eat up the cast time.

If complexity is your angle, I would be more concerned about how a lot of SAM's skillset feels horrendously tacked on. The job going into ShB played very well, with few but livable drawbacks. I wasn't the biggest fan of Tsubame, particularly due to it being a use it or lose it skill, which drives me bat-S. Same goes for Senei (I won't get into a 120s CD also consuming kenki being lame AF). Now they have x2 charge Meikyo, x2 charge Tsubame, and a follow up to Ogi, which is another use it or lose it. You'd think with all these additional charges, that SAM would be the king of sting, but severe potency adjustments saw to it that this did not happen, so now SAM has to work harder for a damage output that doesn't justify it.

In short, fun was shunned to add complexity to this job. My issue with Kaiten is it isn't even one of the current issues SAM has. Consolidating Guren and Senei and/or Shoha/Shoah II into a single skill would have been a FAR more effective way to reduce the button bloat SAM has. Losing Seigan as a third eye skill also needlessly took away from the more complex/intricate portion of SAMs kit.

In short, it took less than one expansion to turn SAM from one of my favorite jobs, to a bench warmer. That's how it goes with MMOs though, and I find it is better to invest based on a how a job plays rather than what the job is. I know that is probably the worst news for anyone who mains any particular job due to a sentimental value it might have, but that is how the winds blow in FFXIV regardless.

This is basically my feeling kn it as well. I switched to DRG for the tier, after maiming SAM since it released.

[Enjuden]

There's nothing complex about Kaiten, and your defense is, "It looks cool." They honestly could [should] bake the animation into Iaijutsu skills to eat up the cast time.

If complexity is your angle, I would be more concerned about how a lot of SAM's skillset feels horrendously tacked on. The job going into ShB played very well, with few but livable drawbacks. I wasn't the biggest fan of Tsubame, particularly due to it being a use it or lose it skill, which drives me bat-S. Same goes for Senei (I won't get into a 120s CD also consuming kenki being lame AF). Now they have x2 charge Meikyo, x2 charge Tsubame, and a follow up to Ogi, which is another use it or lose it. You'd think with all these additional charges, that SAM would be the king of sting, but severe potency adjustments saw to it that this did not happen, so now SAM has to work harder for a damage output that doesn't justify it.

In short, fun was shunned to add complexity to this job. My issue with Kaiten is it isn't even one of the current issues SAM has. Consolidating Guren and Senei and/or Shoha/Shoah II into a single skill would have been a FAR more effective way to reduce the button bloat SAM has. Losing Seigan as a third eye skill also needlessly took away from the more complex/intricate portion of SAMs kit.

In short, it took less than one expansion to turn SAM from one of my favorite jobs, to a bench warmer. That's how it goes with MMOs though, and I find it is better to invest based on a how a job plays rather than what the job is. I know that is probably the worst news for anyone who mains any particular job due to a sentimental value it might have, but that is how the winds blow in FFXIV regardless.

Here's the thing with Kaiten. It can be something else if developers want to use it for something else. It's little more than a damage buff for the next ogcd, however it's a player decision that is more than just 'dump meter into ogcd action that does damage', which all dps jobs unfortunately have and that is what they do. Kaiten is different in the regard of at least giving a different flavor of meter dump into damage. I guess Machinist has Reassemble as something similar in that regard. Maybe they could make it more interesting by buffing end of combo damage more than Iaijitsu so that there is some more decision making with meter use.

There's a reason JP is livid and letting the 'Ooo, let everything convert to Summoner crowd' be trampled into the dirt this time. It's not even button bloat that's the problem. It's idiotic decisions that are made THIS EXPANSION where they consolidate skills but magically decide Ikishoten shouldn't convert into Ogi Namikiri for..some reason? The 'bloat' is literally SE's fault, and why they choose to remove Kaiten when they can remove nothing is why people are mad.

[Gemina]

Here's the thing with Kaiten. It can be something else if developers want to use it for something else. It's little more than a damage buff for the next ogcd, however it's a player decision that is more than just 'dump meter into ogcd action that does damage', which all dps jobs unfortunately have and that is what they do. Kaiten is different in the regard of at least giving a different flavor of meter dump into damage. I guess Machinist has Reassemble as something similar in that regard. Maybe they could make it more interesting by buffing end of combo damage more than Iaijitsu so that there is some more decision making with meter use.

There's a reason JP is livid and letting the 'Ooo, let everything convert to Summoner crowd' be trampled into the dirt this time. It's not even button bloat that's the problem. It's idiotic decisions that are made THIS EXPANSION where they consolidate skills but magically decide Ikishoten shouldn't convert into Ogi Namikiri for..some reason? The 'bloat' is literally SE's fault, and why they choose to remove Kaiten when they can remove nothing is why people are mad.

I know and understand why players are upset. I'm among them, but have felt SAM has gone awry since 6.0. The downward spiral hit me in the gut with the decision to remove Seigan. I underestimated just how much this would impact how SAM feels in combat. Removing Kaiten will no doubt impact how SAM feels even further.

That's what leads me to my main issues with SAM. They are stripping the job of what wasn't even a problem, and have added what no one was even asking for. The removal of Kaiten by itself is not the issue, it's the decision to fix what wasn't even broken.

[Enjuden]

I know and understand why players are upset. I'm among them, but have felt SAM has gone awry since 6.0. The downward spiral hit me in the gut with the decision to remove Seigan. I underestimated just how much this would impact how SAM feels in combat. Removing Kaiten will no doubt impact how SAM feels even further.

That's what leads me to my main issues with SAM. They are stripping the job of what wasn't even a problem, and have added what no one was even asking for. The removal of Kaiten by itself is not the issue, it's the decision to fix what wasn't even broken.

Come to think of it, I actually miss Seigan a lot. It didn't add much for damage but I liked the feeling of using it even if it was just a contest of how mad you can make your healers in raid. It's not the first time SE decided to randomly remove skills from Samurai, like Hagakure which got added back the patch immediately after. I doubt they'll add Kaiten back in if it's removed though unless JP continues their vocal outcry.

Either way, I misread the intent of your post.

[Xenon_S]

Reposting this in several places in attempt to get traction, maybe

Kaiten is not a button bloat issue in the keybinding sense

In the slides, the JP text uses the word "操作量”, which is more equivalent to action bloat, in the sense that it is an extra action to press before iaijutsus.

However, in this vein, Kaiten isn't an action bloat issue either, and removing kaiten does NOT alleviate this issue (which doesn't really exists in the first place imo)

In removing Kaiten, the kenki will just be spent on Shinten instead, which still takes up an oGCD slot, and is objectively less interesting.
Granted, I'm not saying pressing Kaiten is some 200 IQ move, but it is still an active decision to be made, whether to spam Shinten or conserve Kenki for Kaiten.
Which is funny because, going from 4.0 to 5.0, they added Tsubame Gaeshi and the gutted Hagakure to discourage Shinten spam, and now we are going back to it.

The only time Kaiten action bloat is a minor issue is when, during a 2min burst window, you are setting up Midare Setsugekka -> Kaeshi Setsugekka -> Sen GCD -> Higanbana -> Ogi Namikiri with 1 stack of meditation. In which after Higanbana you will reach 3 stack meditation, forcing a Shoha cast, and also having to Kaiten the Ogi Namikiri. Higanbana being a cast means you cannot double weave (without clipping) during that slot thus you have to introduce another GCD to weave the Kaiten, or modify the sequence of the skills.

This can be alleviated in so many ways that does not require the removal of Kaiten.
For example, letting mediation go up to 5 stacks (with Shoha being usable at 3) as to have some buffer zone. This even adds some more optimization depth as you can choose where to place your Shoha.
Or simply make it so that Ogi Namikiri does not require Kaiten, as we got the "sword twirling powerup" with Ikishoten already.

IMO, the decision to remove Kaiten is a bad solution to an irrelevant problem, and this isn't even an agrument regarding the aesthetics and class fantasy of the skill.
For all the transparency and communication the devs do, job balancing isn't part of them.

[MiaShino]

"Yeah!
1-2-3
Do you love me?
Watch me scream
Burning on the trees
In amazement
'Cause I'm on fire
You know?"

"4-5-6
Show ya all my tricks
Fee Fii Fo
A giant's at the door
In amazement
'Cause I'm on fire"

Song is Soul Wars by Awolnation and many thanks to best friend number one for slaying me by mentioning this.

Plenty of ways to consolidate the job skills without yeeting them. Playing Stepmania every two minutes was never complexity. More unique skill combos (not 1,2,3 obviously) and less oh here is another X00 potency skill with big flashy animation you fit under raid buffs.

Roulettes feel like absolute garbage because 90% of time you are syncing down to levels where your job is boring as heck. So at 60 the only spender you have now is to spam engage? Da heck? You have button bloat problem because you insist on adding duplicate X potency buttons instead of actually interacting with job gauge in unique way. Why not just remove job gauges?

[localareanetwork]

Few things, particularly for when people say it adds complexity:

1. SAM has no gauge management if you do your rotation properly and use third eye. I don't know why people say that it does, I literally never even look at my Kenki bar.
2. You use Kaiten at the exact same time, always, for the same 3 skills. In Stormblood Kaiten + Midare wasn't used nearly as often as it is now; it's a spam button (which was Shinten's job). It's not that interesting and this change allows for more agency with Shinten usage.
3. Experienced SAM players will be more rewarded now if they don't mess up their gauge because of the additional damage with an extra Shinten.

That being said people are entitled to their opinions about how they personally feel about it. I'm indifferent but I understand some just like it for what it is. It doesn't add complexity or depth to the job though, ever since they made it so that you had to use it on 3 buttons on your opener. In Shadowbringers it was a bit more nuanced since positionals gave you Kenki and not raw damage and in Stormblood it was straight up use way less so it felt more satisfying when you did use it. For Endwalker however you just spam it and it doesn't feel that great or impactful (At least IMO).

[Minarisweet]

Few things, particularly for when people say it adds complexity:

1. SAM has no gauge management if you do your rotation properly and use third eye. I don't know why people say that it does, I literally never even look at my Kenki bar.
2. You use Kaiten at the exact same time, always, for the same 3 skills. In Stormblood Kaiten + Midare wasn't used nearly as often as it is now; it's a spam button (which was Shinten's job). It's not that interesting and this change allows for more agency with Shinten usage.
3. Experienced SAM players will be more rewarded now if they don't mess up their gauge because of the additional damage with an extra Shinten.

That being said people are entitled to their opinions about how they personally feel about it. I'm indifferent but I understand some just like it for what it is. It doesn't add complexity or depth to the job though, ever since they made it so that you had to use it on 3 buttons on your opener. In Shadowbringers it was a bit more nuanced since positionals gave you Kenki and not raw damage and in Stormblood it was straight up use way less so it felt more satisfying when you did use it. For Endwalker however you just spam it and it doesn't feel that great or impactful (At least IMO).

"If you play perfectly it doesn't add complexity" Yeah ok, does anything at all? And im sure you yourself have felt good when learning how to use the skill while leveling, but decide to act like this is the best decision for no reason but to defend SE.

[localareanetwork]

"If you play perfectly it doesn't add complexity" Yeah ok, does anything at all? And im sure you yourself have felt good when learning how to use the skill while leveling, but decide to act like this is the best decision for no reason but to defend SE.

hitting positional, using thirdeye on raidwides and not hitting ikishoten when you have 60+ kenki already isn't remotely playing perfectly, it's just the bare minimum