What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Skyborne]

...

Couldn't have said it better myself... honestly, having a 'last Ancient' lurking around somewhere would've sufficed for me (no, not mother dearest, her job is 'done'), even as a more symbolic figure who we rarely see who acts as a bridge to the past. The Unsundered souls that were in Zodiark will reincarnate, sure, though it's not really the same thing. Their culture is gone, with the closest thing being Sharlayan which is basically the Great Value Diet Amaurot. In a way the ending of EW reminds a bit of that of FFVI's -- the Espers all fade away, and magic along with it, an entire element gone.

It's funny that I've spoken to length about friends how the game seems to really have an inconsistent 'throw away the past and just move on to the glorious future, never look back' sort of message as of late. Perhaps a way of SE telling us to not think of some of their past flops and embarassments? :^) And then, ironically, they give us an actual portal to the past we can waltz around into whenever... but nothing can ever, ever be changed, okay?

From what we had seen in dialogue, the Ancients had a plan involving Zodiark to sacrifice ancients the first time, sacrifice ancients again, then sacrifice the new life born from the "restored" Ehtheirys to bring all the sacrificed ancients back(someone correct me if I am wrong).

Right that is. You're not really intended to think about the Answers anime music video scene, it's all abstract and metaphorical. Just clap as the music swells and some anguished boomers are symbolically diced up. What a shame, since SE could've flexed their small indie company budget and showed us a cool Zodiark/Hydaelyn clash scene as bombastic as the Shinryu/Omega fight I really liked in the leadup to Stormblood.

[PawPaw]

I wonder if the disconnect between what we see in Elpis vs what the Ancients laid out as their "thought out plan" were either because the thought out plan simply failed or just another disconnect in the plot. From what we had seen in dialogue, the Ancients had a plan involving Zodiark to sacrifice ancients the first time, sacrifice ancients again, then sacrifice the new life born from the "restored" Ehtheirys to bring all the sacrificed ancients back(someone correct me if I am wrong). However, both in ShB dialogue and in the Elpis cut scene it made it appear more that the first set of sacrifices was intended to work, didn't work, all hell broke loose, and they were going for round two. In the cut scene they were in between the first and second sacrifice, however the ancients where befuddled and not at all acting like things were going to plan. If it wasn't due to a simple hole in the story, I wonder if there is anything that could be explained as to why the plan with Zodiark was not going as intended.

Their plan to sacrifice 50% of the population to stop the Final Days worked the first time exactly the way they planned it. The second sacrifice only happened because though the FD had been stopped, it had done enough damage to the world itself for it to basically be dead. So the second sacrifice was to allow the world to heal and be restored.

[PawPaw]

You're not really intended to think about the Answers anime music video scene, it's all abstract and metaphorical. Just clap as the music swells and some anguished boomers are symbolically diced up..

I needed a good laugh, thanks for this

[Caurcas]

Honestly, I think it would been better if the Ancient World was a lot more like Numenor from LotR. An Ancient nation that was the peak of Men, with wonders and might the world had not seen since then, with following nations not even coming close to its splendor. However, its people grew arrogant, vain and prideful, leading to discard the old ways and spit on old friendships. Eventually they tried to invade Aman and the Undying Lands, leading to Eru to make the World round, leading the sinking of Numenor beneath the ocean.

If the Ancient had been more like that, making them brush other concerns under their notice, if they only had a purpose of making the world better only for themselves, it might of been easier to understand Venat but sadly they didn't go that route.

Making it more those elves that followed Feanor and his oath would've worked pretty well.

[Lauront]

As someone who generally enjoys darker and more morally grey stories, it isn't so much the lack of a happy ending for the Ancients that bothered me so much as the sheer lack of nuance and blame directed at the character responsible for their downfall and destruction. In a game that ordinarily handles heavy topics with a bit more tact, it simply feels incredibly out of place for Venat to be presented in the way that Endwalker portrayed.

[...]

So I have to admit, I was very baffled by the stark contrast between how the Garleans were handled compared to the Ancients. Personally if it wasn't for the Garlean conclusion being better than the Ancient's finale then I would have very likely quit. The only reason I'm giving 6.1 a fair chance is because there is a good story at times mixed in with the rest of Endwalker.

Similarly here.

Where my issue arose was that there never was any justice for them. Never, after being clearly affected by the Ancients and their struggle, did the WoL ever question the person who singlehandedly ended them (Got our one dialogue option and a fat load of good that did). I genuinely think Meteion was a scapegoat to avoid this. No matter how noble Venat's intentions were, no matter how deep her guilt, I simply refuse to believe our character would nod and smile at her, a person who has done so much bad and has never answered for any of it. If the WoL opposes Emet-selch despite understanding his reasoning, why is this treatment not given to the even more dubious person? The initial aggressor? I understand not outright attacking her, because she isn't acting against Sundered life, but anything that isn't this mom-mentor nonsense they tried to sell me. I will never understand that...

But going from Shadowbringers, my feelings were basically exactly as you described. I loved the Ancients, I very much wanted to save them, but still saw it as the narratively correct choice, the choice that reflected writing integrity, so to speak, would be to leave the situation as it was, in all of its bittersweet catharsis. What happened to the Ancients was absolutely terrible, absolutely senseless, and basically irreversible, but that small, precious glint of compassion and understanding between Emet-Selch and the WoL managed to slide through the cracks nonetheless. The understanding that it was terrible and senseless and in a perfect world, we could save both, as both deserved to be saved. Those are the small victories people can grasp from the cold, indifferent nature of the universe that resonate with me - even as things are terrible and unjust and unfair, making those small spaces for kindness and understanding.

[...]

That was how I felt from 5.0, in all my admiration of it. Then the dissonance and injustice flowing from Endwalker's approach to Hydaelyn and the Ancients broke my brain and now I am quietly yet shamelessly internally clamoring for a chance to actually save them, whether through further time travel nonsense or however. Handwave it with more dynamis, I don't care! The writing integrity that mattered to me has already been largely thrown out the window by how 6.0 followed it up, so screw it, give me all the self-indulgent garbage now! I know the story, however the tone might change in response to criticism, will never concede Venat not being a good person, so I want my damn junk food consolation prize! This is what I have been reduced to.

In fairness, although I am an Ascian fan to the extent that I'd like to have seen the rejoinings completed to rectify the huge injustice perpetrated on the ancient world, I was alright with the resolution in SHB because I wasn't really expecting them to 1) spring more AUs/time travel or 2) do away with with the current state of the world via the rejoinings, even if a bloodless method of completing them were to be found (not without another 2.0, anyway.) Plus some manner of reconciliation occurred between Emet-Selch and the WoL - Elidibus's predicament was a little more dire in 5.3 but he got a good send off at least. There was also the possibility that they'd lean more into the WoL's past shard, Azem, and any role they had in assisting the 3 unsundered escape the Sundering (until it turns out Venat did that...), and perhaps finally de-couple the WoL from Hydaelyn, but yes, I thought the position SHB settled on was pretty good for the reasons both of you mention.

I agree that what makes it a really bitter pill to swallow is how they portray Venat in-game and how they close off any negative character responses to her, whatever the true position reflected in the game/interviews. But then to go and introduce yet more time travel, but use it as a time loop so as to avoid too much scrutiny around Venat's actions, rather than as an opportunity as an AU to explore the ancient world more and see how its fate if it avoided the sundering, was just adding salt to the wound...

I'm not actively clamouring for an AU but since they seem to go to so much effort, even if just narratively, to "comfort" fans of the protagonists - including the AU Ironworks - yes, I can't say I'd oppose one forming to explore the ancient world more.

[Jeeqbit]

I don’t even know why it’s so hard to understand. THE ECHO EXISTS. She can use the echo to show Emet-Selch of need be.

I've thought that the echo could have been used as well. You could have convinced all of them at that table if they had used the echo to see your past. That seems like a plothole but I don't think Venat, as a third party, could have shown someone else's past to Emet.

As far as your opinion on the ancients goes, they sacrificed themselves to summon an entity to save the planet. I’m not sure how you can even deem this as a bad thing when even Venat herself states how mandatory he is.

Because it was like using a plaster. It sealed the wound but didn't destroy the cause of it. More and more of their people were constantly sacrificing themselves to make Zodiark more powerful in hopes of restoring their perfect paradise, unable to accept the truth that their paradise was not perfect. They needed to tackle this problem themselves, accept their flaws, change how they do things, discuss Meteion with Venat and confront her in Ultima Thule. They refused and continued to sacrifice themselves and if you remember Meteion's reports, the end of many other planet's populations was them sacrificing themselves or killing themselves. She was the only one that could break the cycle.

There are parallels to the Ishgardian nobles who are used to living in a paradise with servants doing everything for them and have less experience with suffering than people in the brume do. They would sooner throw a servant at something than do it themselves. The servants would be the creations in this case.

The other translations of Emet’s line specifically says their efforts wouldn’t have gotten them to Ultima Thule. That’s it. Not that they wouldn’t have been able to combat Meteion.

But to combat Meteion they have to get to Ultima Thule so it's obviously implied by Emet's line that even had they the knowledge of Meition, they would never have got to the point of fighting her with some comrades in the far edge of space, so he was finally able to accept that his people were flawed as well.

To defeat Meteion, we needed an answer to her question, which is when faced with certain doom, why live? Immortal beings couldn't answer this but sundered souls born to suffer and die, have to spend their lives coming up with an answer to this question and these answers will defeat Meteion.

The final days being caused by "the amalgamation of despair" was a poor choice as it was likely made with the intention to drive home a moral lesson than actually giving us something interesting to latch onto.

After doing EW, I've noticed all of the constant references to "despair" in other expansions. It's among a lot of other foreshadowing you see when you go through the story again.

[aveyond-dreams]

After doing EW, I've noticed all of the constant references to "despair" in other expansions. It's among a lot of other foreshadowing you see when you go through the story again.

With all due respect you would have better luck convincing me that the Jailer was the true puppetmaster behind WoW all along than you would trying to convince me that plot points from previous expansions hinted at us facing "despair" as the final boss.

[Rulakir]

And then, ironically, they give us an actual portal to the past we can waltz around into whenever... but nothing can ever, ever be changed, okay?

This is the problem. Clarifying my position, the issue is the time travel combined with going from an AU in ShB to a paradox loop in EW. Had I been asked if I was interested in visiting the past with the caveat that I would not be able to change anything I would've said no. As much as I love Emet and Hythlodaeus, I would not have considered it worth it. My only hope/expectation in EW were Echo flashbacks, which I would've preferred because I wanted to see things from an Azem first person POV not as a 'familiar'.

It's the time travel that opened up a whole can of worms. Worse because our actions did matter. Y'all want to talk about injustice? How about the fact that it made the WoL an accomplice to Venat and the sundering as a result of this?

No matter how noble Venat's intentions were, no matter how deep her guilt, I simply refuse to believe our character would nod and smile at her, a person who has done so much bad and has never answered for any of it.

This is a contributing factor into why EW left me feeling unsatisfied.

I'm not actively clamouring for an AU but since they seem to go to so much effort, even if just narratively, to "comfort" fans of the protagonists - including the AU Ironworks - yes, I can't say I'd oppose one forming to explore the ancient world more.

Exactly. When it's the protagonists AUs are fine, when it's the antagonists suddenly time travel can only be in loops.

Adding to my unsatisfied feelings are, once again, the Scions invoke nothing in the way of costs. Thancred even jokes in Ultima Thule that he doesn't have a scar to brag about which, while meant in that context, still applies to the EW journey as a whole. Contrast that to a civilization that was completely eradicated with the added insult that it was 'for the best'.

I've been evaluating my feelings towards FFXIV as a whole because if I remove Ishgard and anything involving the Ascians from the equation there isn't much else I've found of interest save for some parts of the east in SB. Plus, as I was telling Theodric, if I'm not invested in the same characters the writers are am I not doomed to perpetual disappointment? It's bad enough that, like Lurina said (I miss her), EW felt like I wasn't ethically on the same page as the writers. It doesn't inspire confidence going into future storylines.

The Elpis finale is little more than a stylistic and false depiction of the events that took place in a desperate attempt to deflect attention away from Venat being the one to set all the tragic events in the setting into motion.

I'm convinced that cutscene was constructed to evoke feelings of pity for Venat to manipulate viewers into forgiving her.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

1.There was no foreshadowing, you keep bringing this up when the devs themselves literally stated theyve been just going along with the story as it comes. It isnt hard to look back at older expansions and going, "hmm maybe we should use this or bring this back up." That isnt foreshadowing lol.
2. They werent constantly sacrificing themselves. They did 2 sets of sacrifices and were planning a third. Zodiark did work, while he didnt get rid of Meteion, he shielded them from her, and it lasted for 12k+ years, even after he was sundered, who knows how long it could have lasted if he was whole, surely long enough for the ancients to come up with a plan which brings me to point 3.
3. While they themselves might not have been able to get to UT, which tbh, we dont entirely know if they couldnt eventually, theyre able to make dynamis manipulating familiars. Perhaps they could create a familiar or a set of familiars similar to Zodiark who can take the battle to Meteion. The ancients knew of suffering. Stop acting like they didnt, we're shown numerous times they knew of it, they werent immune to it. No one needed to answer anything. The answer is killing her plain and simple. Servants doing everything for them? Are you serious? The ancients sacrificed themselves so that others would be able to continue living, theyd get to see a brighter tomorrow. Please tell me how the ancients relying on Zodiark is any different or any worse than everyone in this game relying on the WoL, including Venat's entire plan relying on the WoL.

[PawPaw]

I've thought that the echo could have been used as well. You could have convinced all of them at that table if they had used the echo to see your past. That seems like a plothole but I don't think Venat, as a third party, could have shown someone else's past to Emet.

She didn't need to show anyone else's past to Emet-Selch. The main thing she needed to show them was the scene in the room where everything was explained and what happened next; which she was very much present for and thus would have known exactly where to take them to tap into the aetherical remnants for viewing the past events. She knew that Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus had been wandering around with us down below for at least a day so at that point the many researchers that had seen and spoken with us could have helped with advising Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus on locations they had seen us in together. It's not a plot hole, it's a plot crater.

And they didn't ask to see our memories of Eorzea or the First when we were telling them everything the first time, I doubt they'd need them to be willing to accept the story the second time around.

One of their biggest mistakes of that zone was taking the time to teach us how everyone could use the environment to see past events and then trying to use memory wiping as an effective plot device 30 minutes later.