What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Jeeqbit]

I don’t even know why it’s so hard to understand. THE ECHO EXISTS. She can use the echo to show Emet-Selch of need be.

I've thought that the echo could have been used as well. You could have convinced all of them at that table if they had used the echo to see your past. That seems like a plothole but I don't think Venat, as a third party, could have shown someone else's past to Emet.

As far as your opinion on the ancients goes, they sacrificed themselves to summon an entity to save the planet. I’m not sure how you can even deem this as a bad thing when even Venat herself states how mandatory he is.

Because it was like using a plaster. It sealed the wound but didn't destroy the cause of it. More and more of their people were constantly sacrificing themselves to make Zodiark more powerful in hopes of restoring their perfect paradise, unable to accept the truth that their paradise was not perfect. They needed to tackle this problem themselves, accept their flaws, change how they do things, discuss Meteion with Venat and confront her in Ultima Thule. They refused and continued to sacrifice themselves and if you remember Meteion's reports, the end of many other planet's populations was them sacrificing themselves or killing themselves. She was the only one that could break the cycle.

There are parallels to the Ishgardian nobles who are used to living in a paradise with servants doing everything for them and have less experience with suffering than people in the brume do. They would sooner throw a servant at something than do it themselves. The servants would be the creations in this case.

The other translations of Emet’s line specifically says their efforts wouldn’t have gotten them to Ultima Thule. That’s it. Not that they wouldn’t have been able to combat Meteion.

But to combat Meteion they have to get to Ultima Thule so it's obviously implied by Emet's line that even had they the knowledge of Meition, they would never have got to the point of fighting her with some comrades in the far edge of space, so he was finally able to accept that his people were flawed as well.

To defeat Meteion, we needed an answer to her question, which is when faced with certain doom, why live? Immortal beings couldn't answer this but sundered souls born to suffer and die, have to spend their lives coming up with an answer to this question and these answers will defeat Meteion.

The final days being caused by "the amalgamation of despair" was a poor choice as it was likely made with the intention to drive home a moral lesson than actually giving us something interesting to latch onto.

After doing EW, I've noticed all of the constant references to "despair" in other expansions. It's among a lot of other foreshadowing you see when you go through the story again.

[aveyond-dreams]

After doing EW, I've noticed all of the constant references to "despair" in other expansions. It's among a lot of other foreshadowing you see when you go through the story again.

With all due respect you would have better luck convincing me that the Jailer was the true puppetmaster behind WoW all along than you would trying to convince me that plot points from previous expansions hinted at us facing "despair" as the final boss.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

1.There was no foreshadowing, you keep bringing this up when the devs themselves literally stated theyve been just going along with the story as it comes. It isnt hard to look back at older expansions and going, "hmm maybe we should use this or bring this back up." That isnt foreshadowing lol.
2. They werent constantly sacrificing themselves. They did 2 sets of sacrifices and were planning a third. Zodiark did work, while he didnt get rid of Meteion, he shielded them from her, and it lasted for 12k+ years, even after he was sundered, who knows how long it could have lasted if he was whole, surely long enough for the ancients to come up with a plan which brings me to point 3.
3. While they themselves might not have been able to get to UT, which tbh, we dont entirely know if they couldnt eventually, theyre able to make dynamis manipulating familiars. Perhaps they could create a familiar or a set of familiars similar to Zodiark who can take the battle to Meteion. The ancients knew of suffering. Stop acting like they didnt, we're shown numerous times they knew of it, they werent immune to it. No one needed to answer anything. The answer is killing her plain and simple. Servants doing everything for them? Are you serious? The ancients sacrificed themselves so that others would be able to continue living, theyd get to see a brighter tomorrow. Please tell me how the ancients relying on Zodiark is any different or any worse than everyone in this game relying on the WoL, including Venat's entire plan relying on the WoL.

[Jeeqbit]

1.There was no foreshadowing

Maybe there wasn't, but it's interesting that the word "despair" was used so much so maybe they picked up on it from their own playthroughs and used it for EW.

The ancients knew of suffering. Stop acting like they didnt, we're shown numerous times they knew of it, they werent immune to it.

Well Venat didn't think so, so she sundered the world to make them know suffering. As the previous Azem, she saw a lot more of the world than everyone else and was more likely to know.

[Theodric]

Well Venat didn't think so, so she sundered the world to make them know suffering. As the previous Azem, she saw a lot more of the world than everyone else and was more likely to know.

Venat wasn't the only Ancient who travelled the world, though. Hythlodaeus sits down next to the player character at one point during the Elpis story arc and reveals that Emet-Selch is exceedingly well travelled and worked tirelessly to help whoever needed it.

On the other hand Venat, described herself in a rather arrogant manner - referring to herself as 'without prejudice' which we know is a lie because her reaction to people not doing exactly what she wanted was to murder every last man, woman and child present on Etheirys at the time.

Personally I don't think the genocide of the Ancients was ever justified given what we know of the situation.

[tokinokanatae]

I'd rather have a good story than obsess over where the story takes place, personally. To be clear: I welcome a hypothetical expac based on minority cultures not commonly seen in high fantasy. Sure, I love castles and Ishgard remains one of my favorite settings in the game. I also think the Steppe is one of the best-realized locales--on par with Ishgard, imo--and there's not a single castle to be found there. (Garlemald, which is popular with several of the people in this thread, is also an industrial fantasy location without any of the banner flying ramparts so beloved by high fantasy books and movies.) If you remain interested in seeing castles and dragons and concerned they have no place in the game's direction, New Game + is your friend.

Well Venat didn't think so, so she sundered the world to make them know suffering. As the previous Azem, she saw a lot more of the world than everyone else and was more likely to know.

Being widely traveled doesn't make you an expert in suffering, though?

[PawPaw]

I've thought that the echo could have been used as well. You could have convinced all of them at that table if they had used the echo to see your past. That seems like a plothole but I don't think Venat, as a third party, could have shown someone else's past to Emet.

She didn't need to show anyone else's past to Emet-Selch. The main thing she needed to show them was the scene in the room where everything was explained and what happened next; which she was very much present for and thus would have known exactly where to take them to tap into the aetherical remnants for viewing the past events. She knew that Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus had been wandering around with us down below for at least a day so at that point the many researchers that had seen and spoken with us could have helped with advising Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus on locations they had seen us in together. It's not a plot hole, it's a plot crater.

And they didn't ask to see our memories of Eorzea or the First when we were telling them everything the first time, I doubt they'd need them to be willing to accept the story the second time around.

One of their biggest mistakes of that zone was taking the time to teach us how everyone could use the environment to see past events and then trying to use memory wiping as an effective plot device 30 minutes later.