What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[SpectrePhantasia]

Speaking for myself, I'm fine with the Ancients not getting a happy ending. Despite being huge fans of them, their loss and extinction adds weight to those final clashes in Shadowbringers. As mentioned previously, its a terrible thing that the WoL resolved to do, and the acknowledgment and weight of that is what keeps it effective. There's that, as well as that it adds to Emet-selch's decision to finally pass the torch to the Sundered, and assist you in giving his friend Elidibus his rest, so that he won't suffer on alone. It's painful, but Emet fought and lost, and can no longer lie to himself in saying the Sundered aren't alive, which I think is really bittersweet and wonderful writing.

Elidibus comes to see things similarly, and while I do love the English localization's poetic writing of "The rains have ceased..." in truth, his actual last words in Japanese were rather simple, and included a common Japanese saying of "Shikata ga nai" essentially meaning, "It can't be helped," which I think is also very potent. I took it as him realizing there's nothing they can do to bring the ones they love back, because the Sundered are real living people, just like them, and they can't deny that anymore. So while it hurts, there's nothing to be done about it now.

Sometimes bad things happen to good people for no reason at all, and at the end, came a struggle between two groups of people who simply wanted to save the ones they loved. That Shadowbringers climax instilled in me far more that idea of humanity's willingness to exist than anything in the following expansion—that was entirely dedicated to that predicament. Hence my grievances.

Where my issue arose was that there never was any justice for them. Never, after being clearly affected by the Ancients and their struggle, did the WoL ever question the person who singlehandedly ended them (Got our one dialogue option and a fat load of good that did). I genuinely think Meteion was a scapegoat to avoid this. No matter how noble Venat's intentions were, no matter how deep her guilt, I simply refuse to believe our character would nod and smile at her, a person who has done so much bad and has never answered for any of it. If the WoL opposes Emet-selch despite understanding his reasoning, why is this treatment not given to the even more dubious person? The initial aggressor? I understand not outright attacking her, because she isn't acting against Sundered life, but anything that isn't this mom-mentor nonsense they tried to sell me. I will never understand that...

[Brinne]

Speaking for myself, I'm fine with the Ancients not getting a happy ending. Despite being huge fans of them, their loss and extinction adds weight to those final clashes in Shadowbringers. As mentioned previously, its a terrible thing that the WoL resolved to do, and the acknowledgment and weight of that is what keeps it effective. There's that, as well as that it adds to Emet-selch's decision to finally pass the torch to the Sundered, and assist you in giving his friend Elidibus his rest, so that he won't suffer on alone. It's painful, but Emet fought and lost, and can no longer lie to himself in saying the Sundered aren't alive, which I think is really bittersweet and wonderful writing.

This was a lovely post, thank you. And I think you nailed it with the "lack of justice" aspect being the core of the unease. Shadowbringers illustrated, to me, something incredibly important about "bad things happen to good people for no reason at all," but I would hope that the response and resolve formed from that, from a heroic figure who wants to make the world a better place, would be different from what we got. Something that always bothers me is that both Venat herself, and the comments we've gotten from the writing team afterwards, when speaking of her guilt, rhetorically continue to center her feelings. "What I did," "the tragedy I wrought," "she agonized over this," "she felt incredible guilt," so on and so forth. It's not, narratively, actually an invitation to criticize her or see her more negatively - it's an indirect attempt to garner more sympathy, because "she had no choice, but she felt so bad." It's always All About Venat. I think my feelings would have softened a lot if her comment about her actions actually showed her thinking of her victims; had been more along the lines of "They were good people and did not deserve what I did to them."

But going from Shadowbringers, my feelings were basically exactly as you described. I loved the Ancients, I very much wanted to save them, but still saw it as the narratively correct choice, the choice that reflected writing integrity, so to speak, would be to leave the situation as it was, in all of its bittersweet catharsis. What happened to the Ancients was absolutely terrible, absolutely senseless, and basically irreversible, but that small, precious glint of compassion and understanding between Emet-Selch and the WoL managed to slide through the cracks nonetheless. The understanding that it was terrible and senseless and in a perfect world, we could save both, as both deserved to be saved. Those are the small victories people can grasp from the cold, indifferent nature of the universe that resonate with me - even as things are terrible and unjust and unfair, making those small spaces for kindness and understanding.

That was how I felt from 5.0, in all my admiration of it. Then the dissonance and injustice flowing from Endwalker's approach to Hydaelyn and the Ancients broke my brain and now I am quietly yet shamelessly internally clamoring for a chance to actually save them, whether through further time travel nonsense or however. Handwave it with more dynamis, I don't care! The writing integrity that mattered to me has already been largely thrown out the window by how 6.0 followed it up, so screw it, give me all the self-indulgent garbage now! I know the story, however the tone might change in response to criticism, will never concede Venat not being a good person, so I want my damn junk food consolation prize! This is what I have been reduced to.

[SpectrePhantasia]

That was how I felt from 5.0, in all my admiration of it. Then the dissonance and injustice flowing from Endwalker's approach to Hydaelyn and the Ancients broke my brain and now I am quietly yet shamelessly internally clamoring for a chance to actually save them, whether through further time travel nonsense or however. Handwave it with more dynamis, I don't care! The writing integrity that mattered to me has already been largely thrown out the window by how 6.0 followed it up, so screw it, give me all the self-indulgent garbage now! I know the story, however the tone might change in response to criticism, will never concede Venat not being a good person, so I want my damn junk food consolation prize! This is what I have been reduced to.

Broke? My brain has been sundered into ten and three reflections. It feels so horrendously out of touch with the story that came before, that I can only assume that someone higher up the food chain stepped in and said "No you cant put her in a negative light," so they bent over backwards to play take-backsies.

Ah, to see a 6.0 that you and I could enjoy...

[Brinne]

Broke? My brain has been sundered into ten and three reflections. It feels so horrendously out of touch with the story that came before, that I can only assume that someone higher up the food chain stepped in and said "No you cant put her in a negative light," so they bent over backwards to play take-backsies.

Ah, to see a 6.0 that you and I could enjoy...

You know what's funny? Back in 5.0, based on the information we got there, while I completely fell in love with the Ancients and my heart broke for them - as the Zodiark and Hydaelyn conflict was described back then, I would probably say I'd lean to siding with Hydaelyn, even if the situation was just tragic all around.

My assumptions were that a) the third sacrifice was People in some form or another, b) the Sundering was likely an unintended consequence due to the civil war, and c) the people sacrificed to Zodiark were truly dead-dead. With that in mind, my feelings were somewhere along the lines of "I understand their feelings, but yes, sacrificing others to revive your dead is still probably a moral wrong and sets a troublesome precedent. And consistently with Shadowbringers's presentation and themes, sometimes terrible things like the Sundering are just what happens for no rhyme or reason, and all we can do is deal as best we can and with as much kindness as we can with the fallout." The main source of suspicion and aggravation I felt toward Hydaelyn was her subsequent choice to erase the Ancients from history and lie about what had happened - something Shadowbringers seemed to be clear was wrong, given its emphasis on honoring the past, even if your choices differ from theirs. There was a line about "remember us" that was presented with some significance, if I recall correctly.

So EW's clarification on all of those points was an absolute trip to me. In particular, I felt, uh, gut-punched? By our exploration of the moon and the reveal that the souls were in fact trapped, in anguish, suffering in purgatory, permanently within Zodiark if something wasn't done. That immediately flipped me from "Yeah, it sucks, but the Hydaelyn faction was probably more right" to "oh god what in the hell was WRONG with the Hydaelyn faction!?" To me, Emet-Selch would have been a terrible person if he had truly just shrugged and accepted Hythlodaeus and his people being stuck in there, forever unable to return to the Star. And then the Sundering was deliberate - a deliberate, specific attempt to inflict harm upon the Ancients because of them being a disappointment to Hydaelyn. And then the Q&A clarified that actually, at least most of the People we know are in fact descendants of Sundered Ancients, so the seemingly far-fetched idea that the potential third sacrifice was mostly flora and fauna turned out to be the real implication?

I mean, the information we initially got about the third sacrifice was essentially from Emet-Selch, so I guess I have to assume that's what he thought the civil war was about. Soft-hearted as he is, perhaps he was projecting, and truly felt terrible about having to sacrifice those chickens? Heck.

But either way, all of this piling up alongside EW acting like its clarifications were grounds to side more with Hydaelyn, not less, was, um, a strange experience, to say the least.

[PawPaw]

In particular, I felt, uh, gut-punched? By our exploration of the moon and the reveal that the souls were in fact trapped, in anguish, suffering in purgatory, permanently within Zodiark if something wasn't done. That immediately flipped me from "Yeah, it sucks, but the Hydaelyn faction was probably more right" to "oh god what in the hell was WRONG with the Hydaelyn faction!?" To me, Emet-Selch would have been a terrible person if he had truly just shrugged and accepted Hythlodaeus and his people being stuck in there, forever unable to return to the Star.

Nooooooooo, the implications of what we saw on the moon and the fact that she would have left them trapped there forever hadn't even registered for me until reading this, now I'm even more upset, lol

[Lauront]

I mean, the information we initially got about the third sacrifice was essentially from Emet-Selch, so I guess I have to assume that's what he thought the civil war was about. Soft-hearted as he is, perhaps he was projecting, and truly felt terrible about having to sacrifice those chickens? Heck.

The JP version of the Hyth shade dialogue, coupled with what we know now of Zodiark, strongly suggests they were creations, which yes, would put them in the flora/fauna ballpark by and large. What makes me say this? Well, the primal is said to have seeded new life, and we know that their primary method of introducing new species into the world was creation magicks. As a primal, Zodiark appears readily able to materialise concepts, such as the ones Fandaniel invoked while controlling him. The star, provided they met its criteria, would then imbue them with souls.

There were possibly some potentially sapient creations amongst those, but the star is rather selective about what it sticks souls into and familiars as well as other arcane entities generally did not qualify, barring exceptions (potentially) like Meteion. This is all reading between the lines, but my intuition is that her meeting with the WoL in Elpis (given that this all forms part of a time loop now) may have allowed her to spin/believe in a story whereby certain types of creation, including some familiars could, with (a lot of) guidance, grow sapient and inherit the star, particularly the forebears of the 'beast tribes'. But yes, the combined evidence we now have is strongly suggestive of ensouled creations one way or another, and not ancients, as such. And like others, I suspect it was mostly just something she latched onto as a pretext, as her primary focus was avoiding the fate of the Plenty and the sacrifices could be argued (on her view) to result in that... which was definitely the impression the Anamnesis scenes gives, as well as the answers in the LL Q&A. I don't think the writers saw much of a point of focusing on them, so switched the focus onto the whole "suffering" theme.

In any case, I very much agree that the condition of the souls on the moon adds to the emotional dimension of pressing forward with the sacrifices. Opposition to the plan went from dividing their population to dwindling to her group between Elidibus's emergence and her summoning, and given that he was the primal's heart, one can surmise he was in a position to relay the souls' sentiments. If the post-Elpis fast-forward flashes are any indication of the arguments her faction were making, I think it's clear why they would not get very far, particularly given that she did not share the truth of what was motivating her concerns with them.

[Rulakir]

I would've tried to find an alternate solution, which I believed to be what Azem tried to do but EW (and subsequent interviews) muddied those waters. I'm still not happy about how it's written that Azem absolutely did not assist with the Convocation/Zodiark to the extent they were branded a traitor and not deemed worthy of a memory crystal, but the door is left wide open that Azem could've been working with Venat. It's BS. They should've committed to neutrality.

As for it being about the sacrifices, that either could've been a legitimate schism in society she capitalized upon or a convenient lie she told to amass followers. There's no evidence in game she ever shared the truth with anyone, at least not about the sundering. Unless she managed to find more twisted individuals like herself and Hermes, I can't imagine she'd be successful in piecing together a sizable enough crew with the understanding that her goal was to eradicate their race and split apart the star they held in such high reverence.

Regarding not-yet-explored continents, I mostly only care that it's a fantasy setting and that they don't push ideologies.

[Lauront]

I would've tried to find an alternate solution, which I believed to be what Azem tried to do but EW (and subsequent interviews) muddied those waters. I'm still not happy about how it's written that Azem absolutely did not assist with the Convocation/Zodiark to the extent they were branded a traitor and not deemed worthy of a memory crystal, but the door is left wide open that Azem could've been working with Venat. It's BS. They should've committed to neutrality.

They may still do that - my guess at the moment is she convinced Azem to defect on a "trust me bruh" basis, using her influence on them as their mentor, knowing she'd need them (probably without explaining the why) and tempering would prevent her from making use of them, hence the departure potentially seemed capricious. I doubt she'd have revealed the full scale of her plan to them, unless they really want to double down on the character being her accomplice; I think they now realise that may be a bit too much for many to just accept. They've left that open to player interpretation, but I agree with the sentiment; if it were my character, and she revealed her plan, they would definitely oppose her. The WoL's desire to blabber about the truth in spite of Elidibus cautioning them not to is not suggestive to me of someone who could sit idly by while keeping such a secret.

Regarding not-yet-explored continents, I mostly only care that it's a fantasy setting and that they don't push ideologies.

Same.

[Rulakir]

The WoL's desire to blabber about the truth in spite of Elidibus cautioning them not to is not suggestive to me of someone who could sit idly by while keeping such a secret.

We haven't seen anything from either the WoL or Ardbert to suggest that Azem would've agreed with Venat's plan. Every version of Azem we've heard about and/or seen has fought tooth and nail to preserve their world at the cost of others' worlds, which is another reason why the possibility they could've been working with Venat doesn't sit well with me.

My theory is Azem couldn't be a part of the Zodiark summoning because of Hythlodaeus or perhaps because of disagreeing with half of their population in general sacrificing themselves. It's not something I would've wanted to bear witness to either. Not to mention that it had to be tearing Emet apart as well.

[Skyborne]

...

Couldn't have said it better myself... honestly, having a 'last Ancient' lurking around somewhere would've sufficed for me (no, not mother dearest, her job is 'done'), even as a more symbolic figure who we rarely see who acts as a bridge to the past. The Unsundered souls that were in Zodiark will reincarnate, sure, though it's not really the same thing. Their culture is gone, with the closest thing being Sharlayan which is basically the Great Value Diet Amaurot. In a way the ending of EW reminds a bit of that of FFVI's -- the Espers all fade away, and magic along with it, an entire element gone.

It's funny that I've spoken to length about friends how the game seems to really have an inconsistent 'throw away the past and just move on to the glorious future, never look back' sort of message as of late. Perhaps a way of SE telling us to not think of some of their past flops and embarassments? :^) And then, ironically, they give us an actual portal to the past we can waltz around into whenever... but nothing can ever, ever be changed, okay?

From what we had seen in dialogue, the Ancients had a plan involving Zodiark to sacrifice ancients the first time, sacrifice ancients again, then sacrifice the new life born from the "restored" Ehtheirys to bring all the sacrificed ancients back(someone correct me if I am wrong).

Right that is. You're not really intended to think about the Answers anime music video scene, it's all abstract and metaphorical. Just clap as the music swells and some anguished boomers are symbolically diced up. What a shame, since SE could've flexed their small indie company budget and showed us a cool Zodiark/Hydaelyn clash scene as bombastic as the Shinryu/Omega fight I really liked in the leadup to Stormblood.