What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KizuyaKatogami]

I certainly don't agree with all the hot takes here about how Venat committed genocide. This is being said as if ancients weren't sacrificed en masse to support their new god, and then more to fix the damage, and yet more to fight the second coming of the final days. At that point it was a dilemma of "do I let everyone be sacrificed for something that probably won't even work, or do I protect the still living souls and allow them to live on, but as fragments of their former selves?" and I don't know about you, but I'd choose a guaranteed future over the basically-guaranteed extinction of Etheirys. People just love to conveniently forget what would've happened if she didn't do all of that...

The one thing I wish they didn't do regarding this is ultimately portray her as the ACTUAL benevolent god, while Zodiark remained a malicious god purely because he no longer had a mind of his own and was the figure of worship of the Bad Guys TM. If they had only let Zodiark actually matter when the chips fell, and didn't make us kiss the ground Hydaelyn walks upon, then it would've been a far more compelling "maybe there's no real right or wrong" moment. Instead they had to portray her actions as abject good when it's debatable at best. The conclusion of the Elpis scene absolutely broke me, and I still believe it was an amazing part of the story. It would've been much better if we had instead just watched how everything proceeded up to it WITHOUT us intervening and creating a paradox that completely blows up numerous plot points from before.

Her plan wasn’t a guaranteed future though. There was nothing showing that her plan would 100% work, she gambled the lives of billions on a plan even she herself didn’t fully believe in and made a backup plan for that would end in the extermination of countless worlds. You’re acting like the ancients sacrificed other people without consent. The ancients who were sacrificed for the 1st and 2nd round were volunteers. There was also no indication they would continue sacrificing people after the 3rd round, in fact we have a counterpoint to that of Hythlodaeus who tells us after said 3rd sacrifice they would go back to their duties as stewards of the star. If she didn’t do all of that and instead told them the damn truth, they most likely could have all survived.

I’ll agree with the Zodiark comment though, it’s writer bias at its finest.

[anhaato]

Her plan wasn’t a guaranteed future though. There was nothing showing that her plan would 100% work, she gambled the lives of billions on a plan even she herself didn’t fully believe in and made a backup plan for that would end in the extermination of countless worlds. You’re acting like the ancients sacrificed other people without consent. The ancients who were sacrificed for the 1st and 2nd round were volunteers. There was also no indication they would continue sacrificing people after the 3rd round, in fact we have a counterpoint to that of Hythlodaeus who tells us after said 3rd sacrifice they would go back to their duties as stewards of the star. If she didn’t do all of that and instead told them the damn truth, they most likely could have all survived.

I’ll agree with the Zodiark comment though, it’s writer bias at its finest.

So if people get brainwashed or fearmongered into consent then it's ok? And, again, the world was ultimately dying either way and they were seeing it to its destruction, Zodiark or no. Tell them the truth about what evil is out there? So they can freak out some more, and cause more destruction in their muh despair? Convince them they were wrong, because that was going so well? The intent of the Elpis arc was to stress that the original Etheirys was ruled by a flawed society that would either destroy itself or be destroyed, at the precipice of disaster Venat made her decision, and the final Elpis scene was trying to sum that up into a few minutes of footage. I got their intent, but I will admit that it was poorly illustrated through the Elpis arc. Instead of properly giving the impression that they would destroy themselves the way the other worlds did, they turned some bird into a galactic school shooter and her creator into her accomplice and sent them on a genocide mission. So in a way I understand your point and everyone else's but I don't agree.

[Lauront]

So if people get brainwashed or fearmongered into consent then it's ok?

What are you even talking about? Their world was at risk of destruction. They developed a method to counter this. What gives you the impression they were brainwashed or fearmongered?

And, again, the world was ultimately dying either way and they were seeing it to its destruction, Zodiark or no.

According to whom? They did not know about the bird creature, in large part thanks to Venat. For all intents and purposes, Zodiark did stop the problem cold in its tracks, so they had ample time to develop a means to deal with her.

Tell them the truth about what evil is out there? So they can freak out some more, and cause more destruction in their muh despair?

Zodiark was an effective shield against Meteion and restored the star, so I am unsure why that would cause an issue.

The intent of the Elpis arc was to stress that the original Etheirys was ruled by a flawed society that would either destroy itself or be destroyed

An "intent" that was instantiated into the story very poorly and which was predicated on her not telling them the truth.

[Brinne]

So if people get brainwashed or fearmongered into consent then it's ok? And, again, the world was ultimately dying either way and they were seeing it to its destruction, Zodiark or no.

????????

They... they saved the world? A whole point is made in Shadowbringers about how they were such selfless, good people they were willing to sacrifice themselves for those they loved? The face we're given, narratively, regarding the sacrifices, was Hythlodaeus. A-are you arguing Emet-Selch brainwashed and fearmongered him into consenting?

[KizuyaKatogami]

So if people get brainwashed or fearmongered into consent then it's ok? And, again, the world was ultimately dying either way and they were seeing it to its destruction, Zodiark or no. Tell them the truth about what evil is out there? So they can freak out some more, and cause more destruction in their muh despair? Convince them they were wrong, because that was going so well? The intent of the Elpis arc was to stress that the original Etheirys was ruled by a flawed society that would either destroy itself or be destroyed, at the precipice of disaster Venat made her decision, and the final Elpis scene was trying to sum that up into a few minutes of footage. I got their intent, but I will admit that it was poorly illustrated through the Elpis arc. Instead of properly giving the impression that they would destroy themselves the way the other worlds did, they turned some bird into a galactic school shooter and her creator into her accomplice and sent them on a genocide mission. So in a way I understand your point and everyone else's but I don't agree.

Brainwashed or fear mongered? That’s literally what she did with the sundering though. She sundered everyone and everything, and then kept it all a secret and even took to having the planet named after herself. How were they seeing it to it’s destruction? They were taking care of the planet, it was Hermes that ultimately had a hand in destroying it. Had she told them what was to come, it stands to reason they could combat it. The sundered world literally didn’t stand a better chance whatsoever. They all succumbed to despair just as much as well, the only reason the WoL even got as far as they did was because of the “flawed” society you speak of. There is nothing showing that the ancients would destroy themselves. The Plenty isn’t any indication whatsoever, but in the end, every civilization will fall at some point, so what they don’t deserve to live? They deserve to be ripped apart with 0 consent? Guess we should just kill all the sundered since eventually their civilization will fall apart.

[anhaato]

My point TLDR is that the intent of the story was the express that the star was on the verge of killing itself off and that's when she chose to sunder them so the star wouldn't end at that moment. The writers failed to make a proper story around it so it came off wrong. People are straight up accusing the game of being pro-genocide and it's not that serious.

[Brinne]

My point TLDR is that the intent of the story was the express that the star was on the verge of killing itself off and that's when she chose to sunder them so the star wouldn't end at that moment. The writers failed to make a proper story around it so it came off wrong. People are straight up accusing the game of being pro-genocide and it's not that serious.

Writing and storytelling in execution can put forth really troubling messages, through carelessness, even when the intention wasn't explicitly to do so. What we are left with is, for whatever reasons - the need to make people like Hydaelyn, the need to make the player feel generally positive, posit whatever you like - is a story that is scrambling to justify a reason the Ancients as a people had to die and that the person that definitively ended them did so for "the greater good" and "had no choice." That's, um, not unfair to call "genocide apologism." Kind of textbook, actually. I do wish I had a less loaded term to use than "genocide," honestly, but that word already flooded the lexicon of the FFXIV fanbase during Shadowbringers, so the cat is long out of the bag, and I can't really think of a better alternative to describe what was committed. If someone comes up with one it would actually be a relief.

[Lauront]

My point TLDR is that the intent of the story was the express that the star was on the verge of killing itself off and that's when she chose to sunder them so the star wouldn't end at that moment. The writers failed to make a proper story around it so it came off wrong. People are straight up accusing the game of being pro-genocide and it's not that serious.

Yes, but the writers frame that all around her belief. She believes her people won't change (the in-game touchpoint to that is the strawmen in the post-Elpis scene), so she makes the decision to sunder them because of that belief - given that she hides the truth of it all from them, the question then becomes, what reason did she give them to change, besides platitudes? Her actions, whether from good intent or not, are genocidal. There are no two ways about it. She intends to end them as a species to bring about one which she believes will not succumb to the fate of the Plenty (and secondarily, which can manipulate dynamis more readily... although in effect this also makes them far, far more vulnerable to it.)

[KizuyaKatogami]

My point TLDR is that the intent of the story was the express that the star was on the verge of killing itself off and that's when she chose to sunder them so the star wouldn't end at that moment. The writers failed to make a proper story around it so it came off wrong. People are straight up accusing the game of being pro-genocide and it's not that serious.

But Zodiark shielded them from Meteion. And we know that even while sundered he shielded them for 12000+ years. That isn’t really on the verge of killing itself. The planet was thriving at that point where are you getting this information?

[anhaato]

But Zodiark shielded them from Meteion. And we know that even while sundered he shielded them for 12000+ years. That isn’t really on the verge of killing itself. The planet was thriving at that point where are you getting this information?

I mean, yeah, that's exactly why they failed. In making us sympathize with the Ascians over Shadowbringers they made Zodiark into a Not Actually Evil god, thus writing themselves into a hole that made it hard to justify why what Venat did was good. When they made Zodiark neutral at worst, the introduction of "oh the world was gonna die anyway" didn't really stick. Instead of accepting that Hydaelyn is now a morally gray figure at best (allowing us to defeat an intergalactic world-ender, at the price of ending a civilization) they tried and failed to retcon that back to Hydey good Zodey bad world gonna die (I feel like YoshiP was partly responsible for this) and it fell apart. This is intent vs result, my point.