What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Brinne]

However, its people grew arrogant, vain and prideful, leading to discard the old ways and spit on old friendships. Eventually they tried to invade Aman and the Undying Lands, leading to Eru to make the World round, leading the sinking of Numenor beneath the ocean.

Oh, no, no way. That would be the absolute last thing I want, because those tropes are the ones we always get in regard to these "ancient fallen civilizations" - the Othering tropes (arrogant! hubris! cruel! brought on their own demise!) used to prop up our own in-group in comparison, and justify or otherwise shrug off as inevitable/necessary, the deaths of their populations. It's exactly making the choice to not do this to the Ancients, to instead choose to approach them with empathy and compassion and first and foremost, as human, that brought Shadowbringers onto a different level for me.

Even if Endwalker's continuation of their story turned out weird and disappointing in many regards, I would still never give that up for the world. Please let us at least keep Shadowbringers as it is!

[Rulakir]

I didn't want the downfall of the Ancients to be their fault. As much as people go on about how Hydaelyn being evil all along would've been cliche, so would that. Instead, despite Hydaelyn being responsible for their downfall she's hailed as a heroine (WTF) and then we get a scenario in the Dead Ends implying that without the sundering they would've doomed themselves.

It's sad that the villain here should be Hermes, but he and the Final Days are overshadowed by Venat and the sundering.

[Sicno]

During SHB as we were learning about the ancients my theory for what had caused the Final Days (which was probably a common theory) was that because creation magics required a great deal of concentration and they were so powerful the ancients were walking time bombs, and it would have taken one person to lose their focus to create an unexpected abomination and start a chain reaction of panic among their peers that birthed even more abominations through accidental creation magics. Similar to how Estinien lowered his guard for just a moment and that was enough for the eyes of Nidhogg to possess him.

And I thought that would also explain why they had to be sundered, as they had too much power they could lose control over at any moment, so splitting them into less powerful beings was seen as a necessity. And since the Final Days would have been a mess of their own making then sacrificing others to undo its aftermath could have been deemed more inexcusable.

And instead we got... this mess I'm still scratching my head about.

[Riardon]

During SHB as we were learning about the ancients my theory for what had caused the Final Days (which was probably a common theory) was that because creation magics required a great deal of concentration and they were so powerful the ancients were walking time bombs, and it would have taken one person to lose their focus to create an unexpected abomination and start a chain reaction of panic among their peers that birthed even more abominations through accidental creation magics. Similar to how Estinien lowered his guard for just a moment and that was enough for the eyes of Nidhogg to possess him.

And I thought that would also explain why they had to be sundered, as they had too much power they could lose control over at any moment, so splitting them into less powerful beings was seen as a necessity. And since the Final Days would have been a mess of their own making then sacrificing others to undo its aftermath could have been deemed more inexcusable.

And instead we got... this mess I'm still scratching my head about.

Yeah a logical explained ending with enough drama and tragedy to become a good ending to the saga throwed in the trash.
They instead took a messy approach filled with plot holes and time travel mambo jumbo to subvert player's expectations which resulted in whatever that ending was.
I hope the from 7.0 onwards the plot will be more grounded and logical.

[Iscah]

Yeah a logical explained ending with enough drama and tragedy to become a good ending to the saga throwed in the trash.
They instead took a messy approach filled with plot holes and time travel mambo jumbo to subvert player's expectations which resulted in whatever that ending was.
I hope the from 7.0 onwards the plot will be more grounded and logical.

I don't think the time travel is that messy, or at least it didn't need to be - as I said before, all it needed was that Venat lost her memory so there wasn't any information created by the loop with no traceable source.

Either that or we shouldn't have told them about the future at all. The conversation should have ended at:
"...so you must be from the future, correct?"
*nods*
"Well, it's probably not a good idea to tell us anything about what's going to happen, or you might disrupt events. Perhaps you could just tell us in vague terms why you're here?"

All they really need to know is that something bad happens in their future, and they found a way to stop it, so we're hoping to observe what that something is.

[Rulakir]

I didn't have any theories about what caused the Final Days with something as vague as 'the Sound'. I suppose if anything, since it was supposed to have originated from within the planet, I figured it'd be some sort of Lovecraftian/WoW old god sort of thing. I wasn't disappointed with what it turned out to be so much as I was the reasoning for it.

The unfulfilling end to the saga is contributing not only to my skepticism of the future, but also a nagging feeling that something is unfinished. Even though I acknowledge that the story of the Ancients is over as it was written in EW, it was so unsatisfying that I'm not over it if that makes sense. As an Ancient fan, I did not get a happy ending. It sucked. I realized I don't care about the bulk of the Scions or Eorzea for that matter outside of Ishgard. I cared about the Ancients and the unsundered world a lot and it wasn't bad enough that we lost all of it, but that the loss was celebrated. Venat/Hydaelyn is a heroine and the Ancients were saved from themselves!

I think the most frustrating part is all they had to do was create an alternate timeline. We never had to see or visit it, it would've been enough to know it happened. Sending me back in time and not only not being able to change anything, but making me an accomplice to the sundering was just sadistic. I've had to develop my own headcanon as a coping mechanism. :P Either the original 8UC timeline works out for the Ascians in the end (full rejoinings, Hydaelyn forced to tell them the truth because her gamble failed and she lacks the power to try again) or the theory that the WoL is Azem who eventually becomes whole, travels back to the past, and fixes everything in a timeline we don't know about because we're not there yet. :P

[Lauront]

The thing is though that she probably shouldn't have been "on the run" to begin with if that was indeed the case. Everything we saw indicated that she was highly respected by her peers, though they did seem to think she was a little too worldly by their standards. Either way it wouldn't have been difficult to for her to make her case to the Convocation. It sort of comes down to SE writing themselves into a corner. If she had been able to change the course of their history, our characters and the world we know would cease to exist. Kinda hard to do that in an MMORPG when our characters and the game world sorta need to continue existing.

I don't see it as a particular issue, not when prior examples of time travel result in AUs... and I don't recall any of them having an issue with her worldliness. Emet-Selch is also stated to be very well travelled. He just doesn't go advertising it at every opportunity. What she was considered to be was very eccentric/quirky.

Honestly, I think it would been better if the Ancient World was a lot more like Numenor from LotR. An Ancient nation that was the peak of Men, with wonders and might the world had not seen since then, with following nations not even coming close to its splendor. However, its people grew arrogant, vain and prideful, leading to discard the old ways and spit on old friendships. Eventually they tried to invade Aman and the Undying Lands, leading to Eru to make the World round, leading the sinking of Numenor beneath the ocean.

If the Ancient had been more like that, making them brush other concerns under their notice, if they only had a purpose of making the world better only for themselves, it might of been easier to understand Venat but sadly they didn't go that route.

No thanks. Already enough of that in fantasy settings and it'd just encourage the community's more unreasonable elements to start using it to justify their downfall... as it is they're already doing that with aspects where they're having to really twist certain aspects of the ancients to do so. That would've been even worse.

And I thought that would also explain why they had to be sundered, as they had too much power they could lose control over at any moment, so splitting them into less powerful beings was seen as a necessity. And since the Final Days would have been a mess of their own making then sacrificing others to undo its aftermath could have been deemed more inexcusable.

And instead we got... this mess I'm still scratching my head about.

My assumption was that she confused a symptom (loss of control of creation magicks) with the cause and so decided to remove creation magicks from the equation.

We'll have to agree to disagree then because I find this to be an absolutely wonderful aspect of their culture. To find what it is you personally want to do in life and to be able to pursue that goal to the fullest and then when you're tired and feel there is nothing more for you to do, to pass on and rest for a while before being reborn? Sounds great to me. And it's obviously something that is the individual's choice. No one is forced to move on and while people may not fully understand the desire to stay, they certainly don't seem to be shunning those who do decide to.

Every day I see people around me who are just going through the motions. Ever watch faces on a subway in the morning? Most people don't get to do what they truly love for a living, they just do what they have to do to pay the bills and there is no joy in it. Slow march to the end. So yeah, I find a society in which one can embrace their talents and use them to the fullest as well as live out their lives in peace with their loved ones before choosing when they want to rest to be pretty ideal. Why should one choose to drag life out for the sake of finding a new purpose? If one feels content with what theyve accomplished in their life then why should it be odd to move on? Who the hell would want to live forever? Sounds like a nightmare.

And to be honest, Venat strikes me as being one of those people who thinks that nothing can be done correctly if they're not the ones doing it. Not surprising at all that she stuck around.

Agree, I think they had a happy medium between some of the races that just went on forever and ever (although I think the setting's depiction of the Ea is a bit silly, if I'm honest, especially when they throw in Y'shtola simply shrugging off what vexed them), and the sundered, whose lives are ended whether they like it or not when their briefer lifespan ends, i.e. the choice is out of their hands. That latter aspect is something we humans have to accept and try make peace with (and many do e.g. through belief in an afterlife), but the ancients don't have to do this as they can elect when they go, and we ourselves could one day find ourselves in that position as our technology progresses. I recall this when I was a teen, and my grandfather was close to passing away, my parents just remarked about how he wasn't fighting it because he was content with all he'd done in his life and was ready to move on. So it's certainly a relatable sentiment; with a bit of lateral thinking, you can see how it might come to dominate in a civilisation with the traits of the ancients and the rules of the setting.

Obviously there's no reincarnation (that we know of) IRL, so it's a slightly different dynamic in that regard, but it's reasonable to think truly living forever may be unappealing to many - on the other hand, being able to extend that time, live without diseases (including the effects of ageing) which hinder you and use it to enjoy and see more of the world and focus on pursuits you truly find intrinsically satisfying? That's a more appealing proposition. I do suspect it's possible that many ancients may have shifted their perspective if they had learnt the truth of what was happening to the broader universe to re-populating/reviving other stars, especially if Meteion was brought down sooner rather than later, and serving as guiding figures to them like the dragons do in some cases on Etheirys.

[BaconBits]

Somewhere out there, there's an alternate universe where Ishikawa went full throttle on the time travel shenanigans and our actions on Elpis not only created an alternate timeline where the Ancients didn't get sundered and survived, but 12k years later they finally discovered how to freely travel between said timelines and sent a few familiar faces to aid the Sundered in their time of need.

Cheesy as all get out? Absolutely, and it would more than likely cause just as much criticism as the "Big Mommy Venat" debacle, but I think it would be funny. If a bunch of technicians, a space robot and a time-warping robot primal on a dying planet can figure out how to send a giant crystal tower back through time and space, then so can a bunch of nigh-immortal Space Wizards.

[SpectrePhantasia]

Speaking for myself, I'm fine with the Ancients not getting a happy ending. Despite being huge fans of them, their loss and extinction adds weight to those final clashes in Shadowbringers. As mentioned previously, its a terrible thing that the WoL resolved to do, and the acknowledgment and weight of that is what keeps it effective. There's that, as well as that it adds to Emet-selch's decision to finally pass the torch to the Sundered, and assist you in giving his friend Elidibus his rest, so that he won't suffer on alone. It's painful, but Emet fought and lost, and can no longer lie to himself in saying the Sundered aren't alive, which I think is really bittersweet and wonderful writing.

Elidibus comes to see things similarly, and while I do love the English localization's poetic writing of "The rains have ceased..." in truth, his actual last words in Japanese were rather simple, and included a common Japanese saying of "Shikata ga nai" essentially meaning, "It can't be helped," which I think is also very potent. I took it as him realizing there's nothing they can do to bring the ones they love back, because the Sundered are real living people, just like them, and they can't deny that anymore. So while it hurts, there's nothing to be done about it now.

Sometimes bad things happen to good people for no reason at all, and at the end, came a struggle between two groups of people who simply wanted to save the ones they loved. That Shadowbringers climax instilled in me far more that idea of humanity's willingness to exist than anything in the following expansion—that was entirely dedicated to that predicament. Hence my grievances.

Where my issue arose was that there never was any justice for them. Never, after being clearly affected by the Ancients and their struggle, did the WoL ever question the person who singlehandedly ended them (Got our one dialogue option and a fat load of good that did). I genuinely think Meteion was a scapegoat to avoid this. No matter how noble Venat's intentions were, no matter how deep her guilt, I simply refuse to believe our character would nod and smile at her, a person who has done so much bad and has never answered for any of it. If the WoL opposes Emet-selch despite understanding his reasoning, why is this treatment not given to the even more dubious person? The initial aggressor? I understand not outright attacking her, because she isn't acting against Sundered life, but anything that isn't this mom-mentor nonsense they tried to sell me. I will never understand that...

[Brinne]

Speaking for myself, I'm fine with the Ancients not getting a happy ending. Despite being huge fans of them, their loss and extinction adds weight to those final clashes in Shadowbringers. As mentioned previously, its a terrible thing that the WoL resolved to do, and the acknowledgment and weight of that is what keeps it effective. There's that, as well as that it adds to Emet-selch's decision to finally pass the torch to the Sundered, and assist you in giving his friend Elidibus his rest, so that he won't suffer on alone. It's painful, but Emet fought and lost, and can no longer lie to himself in saying the Sundered aren't alive, which I think is really bittersweet and wonderful writing.

This was a lovely post, thank you. And I think you nailed it with the "lack of justice" aspect being the core of the unease. Shadowbringers illustrated, to me, something incredibly important about "bad things happen to good people for no reason at all," but I would hope that the response and resolve formed from that, from a heroic figure who wants to make the world a better place, would be different from what we got. Something that always bothers me is that both Venat herself, and the comments we've gotten from the writing team afterwards, when speaking of her guilt, rhetorically continue to center her feelings. "What I did," "the tragedy I wrought," "she agonized over this," "she felt incredible guilt," so on and so forth. It's not, narratively, actually an invitation to criticize her or see her more negatively - it's an indirect attempt to garner more sympathy, because "she had no choice, but she felt so bad." It's always All About Venat. I think my feelings would have softened a lot if her comment about her actions actually showed her thinking of her victims; had been more along the lines of "They were good people and did not deserve what I did to them."

But going from Shadowbringers, my feelings were basically exactly as you described. I loved the Ancients, I very much wanted to save them, but still saw it as the narratively correct choice, the choice that reflected writing integrity, so to speak, would be to leave the situation as it was, in all of its bittersweet catharsis. What happened to the Ancients was absolutely terrible, absolutely senseless, and basically irreversible, but that small, precious glint of compassion and understanding between Emet-Selch and the WoL managed to slide through the cracks nonetheless. The understanding that it was terrible and senseless and in a perfect world, we could save both, as both deserved to be saved. Those are the small victories people can grasp from the cold, indifferent nature of the universe that resonate with me - even as things are terrible and unjust and unfair, making those small spaces for kindness and understanding.

That was how I felt from 5.0, in all my admiration of it. Then the dissonance and injustice flowing from Endwalker's approach to Hydaelyn and the Ancients broke my brain and now I am quietly yet shamelessly internally clamoring for a chance to actually save them, whether through further time travel nonsense or however. Handwave it with more dynamis, I don't care! The writing integrity that mattered to me has already been largely thrown out the window by how 6.0 followed it up, so screw it, give me all the self-indulgent garbage now! I know the story, however the tone might change in response to criticism, will never concede Venat not being a good person, so I want my damn junk food consolation prize! This is what I have been reduced to.