What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lauront]

It may be my understanding of the term here that's the issue, but this is less a case of burn out and more an issue of whether the game is/will be a good fit for that poster's tastes. Same with me, and several others in this thread. While the intention is to keep an eye on the new story (and also gameplay) to see if matters improve, it's different to the usual type of burn out. It's closer to how I was feeling about WoW before I quit it for good, several years and expansions ago.

On another note, an acquaintance at work that knew I played the game asked about how the expansion was going I don't know if it was my pausing or something else, but he said " I heard it was pretty bad?". Where would people be saying Endwalker, or the story for it was bad? Because it's not in the reviews, not on reddit.

Forgot to comment on this but I'm also curious. On discussion boards like this (or MMO champ, 4chan etc) there is more mixed discussion, but on sites like Reddit, it's very quickly shot down, although that site isn't very good for balanced discussion of most topics at the best of times...

[jameseoakes]

It may be my understanding of the term here that's the issue, but this is less a case of burn out and more an issue of whether the game is/will be a good fit for that poster's tastes. Same with me, and several others in this thread. While the intention is to keep an eye on the new story (and also gameplay) to see if matters improve, it's different to the usual type of burn out.
..

That expresses my feelings on things. At this point I don't really have any faith in them telling a story I want to experience or telling it well. At the moment I am planning on a extended break as I don't find the game engaging anymore and may wait on feedback from people on how things are in 6.1.

[Kozh]

Minfilia was a zealot. I love how they portrayed Hydaelyn telling her to kill herself and Minfilia obliging as her acting of her own free will. It was cultist behavior. Thancred, despite his complete inability to move on from Minfilia, is never once upset with Hydaelyn about this either. Even when he finds out Hydaelyn is a primal in 5.0 he refuses to believe any negative implications that has for Minfilia. The 3.2 artwork also shows Minfilia chained to the Mothercrystal. Minfilia herself says that until she offered herself up as a vessel she was alone in the aetherial sea. I'm always baffled by the ones who say there was no evidence Hydaelyn wasn't good when there's a long history of her being shady even without the Ascian perspective.

Honestly this is what finally drove me to hate hydaelyn in the first place. I'm one of the dozen people who loves minfilia, so sorry to say that there's no way for me to forgive her for what she's done. Asking minfilia to kill herself, then left her alone to try saving the First until the WoL come. Imagine having to reborn, fight in wars, died painfully; over and over again for 100 years.

And yes, it's so strange that thancred doesn't have any reaction whatsoever when he finally face to face with hydaelyn.

Apparently venat has enough power to fight us, and the aether she accumulated has leftover that's enough to empower Zenos for a trip to ultima Thule. And yet she still ask for her follower to died so she can used her.... Man, if this game gave me options, I probably would beat venat to (half)death during our spar back in elpis.

[Teraq]

What up everyone, it's me getting a second character through MSQ, on my way to fixing the timeline:


I am heartbroken to report she survived with 10% HP.

I'd forgotten how much of a mood literally every single one of Emet's lines in Ktisis was, too. In fact, Emet throughout the last third of Elpis is, frankly, the most relatable character in Endwalker (I mean beside the one Ea lying flat beside a pond, going "Aaaaahhh" when you walk by). This dude has had it with Hermes, openly musing he doesn't get him and frankly doesn't even care what he thinks if push comes to shove, which it does, and I am here for it. The way he replies with irritation every time Hermes opens his mouth in Ktisis, complaining about this whole ordeal being a waste of his time (chef's kiss) RIP pre-BS-memory-wipe Emet-Selch, you were too good for this convoluted plot that needs Olympic gymnastics to work.

The Twinning dungeon having us go in and break the time machine in the Crystal Tower felt like the writers not-so-subtly saying "Okay, there isn't going to be any more timey-wimey nonsense." then they doubled back on that and made it have much further reaching implications/effects then any of the prior instances of it did.

Oh my god I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that was the point of the Twinning too. We destroyed the Ironworks Alexander! Doc Brown here shouldn't be able to send us back in time, no matter how much delicious Primal Juice he's hopped up on. Or... if that wasn't it, what was the point of the Twinning? Am I just naive for asking what the point of a side dungeon was?

Of course, I'm one of those weirdos who enjoyed the ascians since 2.0, as they kind of had that OrgXIII thing going on where it seemed like there was more to them and their 'dark god', each one was a (loveable) jerk in their own way, and that each member seemed to have their own agenda and clashed with each other ala Nabriales, and the scene where Elidibus has to tug the leash on Lahabrea, and Fandaniel. And the rest of 4-5 left who we haven't seen yet. The cool robes and masks and the extradimensional crystal clubhouse with the chairs also helps.

God, yes. Not going to lie, at one point in Elpis I dared to dream we might see them all as the Convocation in a cutscene, even if just as a cameo each. Maybe finally give us definite info on their respective seats, masks, sigils, idk, something, come on Square Enix you're the ones who told me this storyline would wrap up Hydaelyn/Zodiark things and that I was free to let my expectations run wild (he said this before the February EW reveal, didn't he?).

I legit wanted 6.0 to feature at least a couple of remaining Ascians as allies against Fandaniel. Thoughts and prayers for Pashtarot who actually had a voiced line in the 2.0 epilogue.

I’m happy i’m not the only one that was upset at this. This major character built up over expansions just one and done within 2 patches and then there’s just a tea party after as if we didn’t just exterminate an entire race of people??? Honestly all the writers have shown me from 5.3+ onwards is that they’re either lazy or just can’t handle finishing a product to the end.

Sweet baby Zodiark look at the time, it's almost Day 100 of mourning the expectations I had for the longest-standing antagonist that had just recently been revealed as being literally Zodiark's acting consciousness just a couple of patches before the grand finale of the Hydaelyn and Zodiark arc which he was surely going to play a major part in. To this day I'm still not sure who I should be angrier at: the writers, or my dumb-ass self, for thinking 5.3 was actually just the Part 1 to Actually Zodiark As A Character and that it being rushed was going to be redeemed in 6.0.

[Rulakir]

Y'know, I think hearing the producer himself say "you guys are looking at the story too much"(paraphrasing) really deflated me, more than I realized at the time. I think the theory crafting that the fanbase does is pretty standard stuff, and the questions that were asked in that LL were questions that I've heard many people ask before in online discussion. But if we're overthinking it then what does that mean for the actual writing team? Do they not consider the resolutions of things they create beforehand? Their established lore? If I care about their story and characters this much and am told it's too much, should I not even bother anymore?

Same. It's disappointing that the writers themselves don't think about the finer points of the lore they're crafting. (Are they new to fandoms? This is what people do!) Plus, Yoshi-P's response of "come up with your own theory" to some fairly important questions. I also don't understand their treatment of Azem. I'll be honest, they've painted Azem (and the WoL by extension) as someone who has the polar opposite personality that I do, that's apparently fine, but we can't know what they were up to during the Final Days or have a glyph design for them because that's stepping on headcanon toes?

I've gotten the feeling with EW that they have an image in mind of an MMO player. Specifically that we're all travelers at heart who enjoy challenge just for the sake of it. The 4th wall breaking encounters, where we're not allowed to answer in any meaningful capacity, further emphasized that with Venat you've loved everything about your journey, with Zenos you want to fight him no matter what, or with Thancred you loved joining the Scions. I would say maybe I ask for too much, but I still remember at the beginning of SB when Alphinaud asked me if I'd help them with Ala Mhigo I was able to say it's not my problem. He was disappointed, and it didn't change anything, but at least I got to say it! EW was like, if you don't have anything nice to say you don't get to say anything at all.

Apparently venat has enough power to fight us, and the aether she accumulated has leftover that's enough to empower Zenos for a trip to ultima Thule. And yet she still ask for her follower to died so she can used her.... Man, if this game gave me options, I probably would beat venat to (half)death during our spar back in elpis.

Yeah, and there's no way she could've planned for Zenos, in fact, I've wondered if he's a wildcard in our timeline since he is the one who stopped Black Rose. I thought the line about Emet 'finding a way' would've led to something, but nope. -_- I never liked Minfilia, but I can acknowledge that she was done dirty by Hydaelyn, even worse when you see Argos. :P Krile was all too willing to offer herself up to the same treatment too, which I'll never understand because at that point in the story we knew she was a primal who had sundered the world and we didn't know what her intentions were, so whyTF would you be like, "Oh, it's totally cool if you use me!" Honestly, a lot of the story makes more sense if Hydaelyn does temper because everyone just turns stupid in her presence.

To this day I'm still not sure who I should be angrier at: the writers, or my dumb-ass self, for thinking 5.3 was actually just the Part 1 to Actually Zodiark As A Character and that it being rushed was going to be redeemed in 6.0.

I'm hesitant to be angry at the writers because I still think there's a possibility Ishikawa was pressured to change the story. I can't be mad at her if it turns out it's someone at corporate who would've gotten their knickers in a twist if Hydaelyn was portrayed as anything but good. Or, gods help us, if it was the ethics committee who had a problem with it. I'm reminded of when the writer of AoT wanted to kill Sasha and his editor was so distraught over it that he let her survive what was supposed to be a fatal encounter.

[jameseoakes]

I never liked Minfilia, but I can acknowledge that she was done dirty by Hydaelyn, even worse when you see Argos. :P Krile was all too willing to offer herself up to the same treatment too, which I'll never understand because at that point in the story we knew she was a primal who had sundered the world and we didn't know what her intentions were, so whyTF would you be like, "Oh, it's totally cool if you use me!" Honestly, a lot of the story makes more sense if Hydaelyn does temper because everyone just turns stupid in her presence.

I think your on to something that with, I'm one of the rare people that liked Minfilia but Venat just seems to have used people. The game states a lot the love she has for all of her Children but the game never shows us that, but at least for me it's been easy to see how she's been using people but we've seen very little actual affection from her and the mother crystal things feels like a lie as she's not so it makes her use of the people who believe in her feel at least to me evil.

[Kyohei]

Krile was all too willing to offer herself up to the same treatment too, which I'll never understand because at that point in the story we knew she was a primal who had sundered the world and we didn't know what her intentions were, so whyTF would you be like, "Oh, it's totally cool if you use me!" Honestly, a lot of the story makes more sense if Hydaelyn does temper because everyone just turns stupid in her presence.

Glad I'm not the only one bugged by this. I liked Krile but this absolute faith in a goddess which they actually know nothing about in the end is beyond understandable. She did basically ask Minfillia to die and the girl obliged, and she was pushing Krile to the limit as well.Y'shtola even got worried in Labyrinthos to begin with, but as soon as we find out it's Hydaelyn trying to talk, everything turns all good & do as you wish. None of her manipulations has ever been addressed, it's simply pushed under the carpet. All the scions act with same level of devotion to Hydaelyn as would tempered.
Yet we get the discourse from lopporitts that big bad ascians are the ones that included nasty elements in primal summoning that lead to tempering, the all-loving mother Hydaelyn doesn't do that of course. Once again pushing further the "Hydaelyn good" compared to ascians, once again throwing a bucket of white paint on her and black paint on ascians instead of letting them in the grey area.
It's just yet another great disservice to the story when you get scions acting the way they did, not questioning anything and being extremely accepting of condemnable behaviours from their self-made mother goddess. All in all, I agree they should've had the same treatment as the ascians and have a certain level of tempering to explain their questionable attitude. Either that or the reverse and have none of the two side tempered.

[Lauront]

Same. It's disappointing that the writers themselves don't think about the finer points of the lore they're crafting. (Are they new to fandoms? This is what people do!) Plus, Yoshi-P's response of "come up with your own theory" to some fairly important questions. I also don't understand their treatment of Azem. I'll be honest, they've painted Azem (and the WoL by extension) as someone who has the polar opposite personality that I do, that's apparently fine, but we can't know what they were up to during the Final Days or have a glyph design for them because that's stepping on headcanon toes?

I've gotten the feeling with EW that they have an image in mind of an MMO player. Specifically that we're all travelers at heart who enjoy challenge just for the sake of it. The 4th wall breaking encounters, where we're not allowed to answer in any meaningful capacity, further emphasized that with Venat you've loved everything about your journey, with Zenos you want to fight him no matter what, or with Thancred you loved joining the Scions. I would say maybe I ask for too much, but I still remember at the beginning of SB when Alphinaud asked me if I'd help them with Ala Mhigo I was able to say it's not my problem. He was disappointed, and it didn't change anything, but at least I got to say it! EW was like, if you don't have anything nice to say you don't get to say anything at all.

You've hit on some of the parts of it I really didn't like. I almost get the sense that they weight some sources of feedback (e.g. reddit) too much when considering their "fan service". Ordinarily I just brush that sort of stuff aside, as I find it a little cringeworthy, but EW had too many issues combined for me to do so.

I'm hesitant to be angry at the writers because I still think there's a possibility Ishikawa was pressured to change the story. I can't be mad at her if it turns out it's someone at corporate who would've gotten their knickers in a twist if Hydaelyn was portrayed as anything but good. Or, gods help us, if it was the ethics committee who had a problem with it. I'm reminded of when the writer of AoT wanted to kill Sasha and his editor was so distraught over it that he let her survive what was supposed to be a fatal encounter.

Aye, I'm not too sure it's either her or Yoshi to blame. I have a feeling his heart is more in XVI and that with XIV it's just a case of keeping the bills paid, hence the indifference and blasé attitude to the lore questions, and that this was more so calculated based on what they thought would get the best audience response, albeit based on the tastes of a specific audience.

The Elpis story arc was really the only part of Endwalker that hugely disappointed me in hindsight because it betrayed my expectations and not in a good way.

The Twinning dungeon having us go in and break the time machine in the Crystal Tower felt like the writers not-so-subtly saying "Okay, there isn't going to be any more timey-wimey nonsense." then they doubled back on that and made it have much further reaching implications/effects then any of the prior instances of it did.

There was so little foreshadowing or build-up to the twist it just felt really...cheap compared to every other major story beat in XIV overall.

I completely forgot about that.

[Atelier-Bagur]

You've hit on some of the parts of it I really didn't like. I almost get the sense that they weight some sources of feedback (e.g. reddit) too much when considering their "fan service". Ordinarily I just brush that sort of stuff aside, as I find it a little cringeworthy, but EW had too many issues combined for me to do so.



Aye, I'm not too sure it's either her or Yoshi to blame. I have a feeling his heart is more in XVI and that with XIV it's just a case of keeping the bills paid, hence the indifference and blasé attitude to the lore questions, and that this was more so calculated based on what they thought would get the best audience response, albeit based on the tastes of a specific audience.



I completely forgot about that.

I mean...the man did just say that he's going to continue working on FFXIV until either he's fired or he dies in the recent live letter. I dont see that comment being said by any average joe who's working this game just to pay the bills. People just have indifferent opinions about EW's story and thats fine honestly. I dont see the much of the issues with the narrative and personally find a lot of you guys are either stretching it or being plain nitpicky. To me in every expansion's narrative there's always highs and lows; including Heavensward and Shadowbringers. There's some aspects in EW's story that I wish were explored a little more or some didnt click for me but there were still more positives than negatives for me to just write off as "lackluster" in general. This is just me though.

[Teraq]

If anything, doing the side quests in Elpis doesn't help seeing them as "unable" to learn, grow and change quite the contrary...Most of them were eager to see and try news ways of doing things and thinking. What they needed wasn't obliteration but matter to grow from. Things grow with and according to the soil it's given, not from nothingness. Presented as they were, if they had knowledge of not only what caused the final days but how many civilisations ended, there's no doubt they would have re-evaluated their ways.
[...]
Somehow, instead of leaving a feeling of hope as intended, Endwalker struck me with fatalism.

This is 100% how I felt like. When summarising the story to a friend (before deep-diving into ridiculous detail, because of course I did), I went with "this is a story about hope versus annihilation, but only if you're the right people, because as it happens, hope simply isn't for everyone". The Ancients simply couldn't win: either they were too perfect and were obviously, ineluctably going to end up like Ostrakon Strawmanos at some indefinite point in the far future, and therefore were naturally deserving of being literally erased from history because uhhhh yea; or they just plain weren't perfect enough because some of them were sad sometimes, treatment of sentient beings in that one research facility could be improved somewhat and Pandaemonium happened, therefore their world was totally shit and obviously not worth being brought back, haha, GOTCHA MR "we were so much better" EMET-SELCH!

And speaking of Pandaemonium, I find it interesting that the probably-terrible events that transpired there were witnessed by the guy who then went on to save the planet regardless, struggle for 12,000 years to bring his people back and was prepared to toil alone for however many more out of sheer determination at the cost of his own self. Venat really could have taken a lesson or two about hope from her counterpart. And no, I'm not stepping down from this Elidibus soapbox unless someone forcibly drags me down from it.

I'm hesitant to be angry at the writers because I still think there's a possibility Ishikawa was pressured to change the story. I can't be mad at her if it turns out it's someone at corporate who would've gotten their knickers in a twist if Hydaelyn was portrayed as anything but good. Or, gods help us, if it was the ethics committee who had a problem with it. I'm reminded of when the writer of AoT wanted to kill Sasha and his editor was so distraught over it that he let her survive what was supposed to be a fatal encounter.

I realize there was almost certainly shenanigans going on backstage with regards to the story being cut short. But as much as I like a lot of the elements she's brought into the story, there's a number of things that irk me about Ishikawa. Her apparent reluctance to have any real consequences for the heroes is one thing, but my biggest peeve is how it seems she plays favorites with characters. Some of them are obviously her babies and boy, does it show. I suppose it's only natural for a writer of a sprawling storyline like this to prefer writing the characters they've introduced. Nowhere was it as egregious as with Fandaniel, in part because Emet-Selch kind of was lightning in a bottle and Fandaniel was always going to be worse, but let's be frank, the constant spotlight on Emet also pissed me off.

IMO this really contributed to Endwalker feeling awkward to me because it largely felt like its own enclosed storyline, with its own concepts and central characters, rather than the wrapping-up-everything finale I thought it was supposed to be. On their own, I found Dynamis, Meteion and even Fandaniel, janky as I found his character to be, pretty interesting ... as their own plot line. Similarly, the ending credits artwork featuring only the Ancients that appear in Elpis works ... when considering Endwalker its own self-contained thing. But the moment you tell me this is the epic conclusion to a 10-year story arc and that Zodiark died for this is when my soul starts leaving my body.

Also, coming from the ASOIAF fandom and having watched (with hardly concealed glee, I'll admit) Game of Thrones blow up from a relative distance, I never want to read the words subverted expectations anymore.

Yes that's exactly where I'm coming from, they had doubts on Hydaelyn in the end of ShB, then we start Endwalker with Krile offering herself without restraints. I don't know about others, but if I had doubts about someone I certainly wouldn't let myself freely become their vessel. Like you say, the more we get in Endwalker, the more shady truths we learn about her. Strangely though, instead of getting an even more critical eye while learning said truths, the scions' faith enhances and just become sheeps only able to welcome everything she does. It simply doesn't logically add up.
Hydaelyn certainly felt different than Venat, it would've been natural for her to have been tempered by her own ideals and convictions really. Those were so strong she obliterated her own world, but the story is trying to tell me her mind remains intact? Sorry but can't buy that.

lol the apparent lack of consequences from Hydaelyn being a Primal at all is hhNNNNGGGggg. No tempering, no memory loss, no bias. So much for the ominousness of that reveal back then!