The Problem with Paladin

[Andrien]

It's not like curing is 90% or even 80% of their total threat generating abilities combined. Yeah, it's definitely a fundamental part of it, but I disagree that it's the primary source. A few well-placed/timed Holy Succors on party members or a well-timed Sacred Prism > Cure generates a great deal amount of threat on their own - couple those with Provoke, Flash, Flat Blade combo, Sentinel, Rampart, War Drum, and even just straight damage, there's a lot a PLD can do to hold threat in addition to healing.

It's not like you have to keep spamming your curing spells all the time - you'll just drain your MP pool.

There is a lot of damage dealers out there too to consider how quickly they can generate enmity. You can cure them as well to keep enmity but how much of that can you do before you're empty?

[Andrien]

So lets say paladins do get a better way of managing MP. What will happen to bards? Sure bards have other good abilities that make them great, but giving this ability to paladins is just adding another reason to take a black mage over a bard. Look at the big picture.

As I said, there are other ways to make paladins better than gladiators in a balanced party without ruining the balance of the system.

A better way is to add equipments with:
mp refresh.
an accessory that mitigate a percentage of damage to restore some mp.
refresh trait

I can think of more that is not game breaking.

[Phobos]

I think my issue is the jobs are supposed to be clearly better for party play while classes are better for solo, and it is apparent that the gains for PLD in either party or solo are not enough to warrant using it at all. Even if you have a BRD (which is now just doing ballad to make up for the PLD's MP recovery loss, and therefore making it difficult/impossible to buff others) GLA can still recover more MP and use it more than PLD can.

[Shiggysonson]

I do want to see BRD being used for its purpose, but I think its kind of silly that it basically NEEDS to refresh the PLD and likely the WHM. What about the other 5 people? They aren't necessarily mages and may be too close to the WHM or PLD where it's not easy to give them too many buffs. That and BRD should still be able to DD some rather than run around singing to everyone.

I haven't unlocked bard yet so I don't know how bards work 100%, but is there no way to split songs in a party? Especially for fights like ifrit where positioning the group is fairly easy. For example, have the white mage + black mages stand together for ballad, and have DoW stand somewhere else for accuracy or whatever it is they want. Of course this will be difficult for some fights, but nothing some coordination of the party can't fix. I mean bards did this for years in FFXI.

I do agree that bards should not be constantly running around to do songs as they can do some decent damage. However, the fact that SE decided to give them access to conjurer and thaumaturge abilities gives me the idea that the job was designed to act as more of a support than damage.

I just think the job system is so fragile in terms of balance. It seems very hard to get right where all jobs have their own unique, awesome abilities, but at the same time not so overpowered as to make classes and other jobs useless. In my opinion, they did a very good job with the balance. I'm not saying it's perfect and doesn't need any fixes. They just need to be VERY careful.

[Shiggysonson]

I can think of a few what if problems that might occur that'll result in down time for mp regarding PLD.
GLA tank is likely the best choice for these still.

long boss fight
time limits
large scale battles
EXP Parties

What?
No, seriously....what?!
I'm not saying make it impossible for paladins to manage MP. I'm just saying don't make it so they can manage MP alone. So are you saying if paladins were able to manage their MP alone, paladins would be better in all those situations? Wouldn't that mean a paladin with a bard is better in all those situations?

[Phobos]

I haven't unlocked bard yet so I don't know how bards work 100%, but is there no way to split songs in a party? Especially for fights like ifrit where positioning the group is fairly easy. For example, have the white mage + black mages stand together for ballad, and have DoW stand somewhere else for accuracy or whatever it is they want. Of course this will be difficult for some fights, but nothing some coordination of the party can't fix. I mean bards did this for years in FFXI.

I do agree that bards should not be constantly running around to do songs as they can do some decent damage. However, the fact that SE decided to give them access to conjurer and thaumaturge abilities gives me the idea that the job was designed to act as more of a support than damage.

I just think the job system is so fragile in terms of balance. It seems very hard to get right where all jobs have their own unique, awesome abilities, but at the same time not so overpowered as to make classes and other jobs useless. In my opinion, they did a very good job with the balance. I'm not saying it's perfect and doesn't need any fixes. They just need to be VERY careful.

I agree they need to be careful, which is why my suggestions were that they make Outmaneuver (an ability we already have) actually do something rather than the occasional lucky 9MP return on a block, and possibly change Spirits Within (2 minute recast) to give some MP rather than do more damage based on HP.

I don't want MP donated to me to make things super easy, but we should be compelled to use jobs in a party. On Ifrit the Bard was a little wary of having to give me Ballad, as he was afraid he'd have to get too close. This to me suggests there would be a lot of running around with potential danger depending on where you're running to.

I'm hoping to get a few more long duration fights under my belt with PLD, likely using meds and hoping to get a BRD to come along, and hopefully others who have done this can elaborate on whether its viable or not.

I just don't think using jobs should make things more tedious/difficult/dangerous for party play(in the case of the BRD having to run around to potentially dangerous spots to buff ppl).

Other things I saw was as the BLM's died they could not raise each other, but I think just 1 or 2 of them need to be on THM or you need a WHM paying attention to them. I don't consider those issues as they will hopefully get worked out as players get a little more experience with this. I do hope PLD will be this way, but to me, it's not looking so as GLA can survive better right now (even with a BRD). The only survival move is Hallowed Ground, which only lasts 15 seconds and only works for Physical Damage, so you don't gain much.

EDIT: you also mention FFXI. Bards there were easier to fit into alliances as you had 18 spots as opposed to 8, just saying.

[Andrien]

What?
No, seriously....what?!
I'm not saying make it impossible for paladins to manage MP. I'm just saying don't make it so they can manage MP alone. So are you saying if paladins were able to manage their MP alone, paladins would be better in all those situations? Wouldn't that mean a paladin with a bard is better in all those situations?

Didn't make myself clear I see. I was agreeing with you and on top of that adding some possible scenarios

[Signy]

Auto-Refresh will be nice to have on PLD. On XI the PLD have it. Even a 10/tick refresh will be awesome.

[Shiggysonson]

There is a lot of damage dealers out there too to consider how quickly they can generate enmity. You can cure them as well to keep enmity but how much of that can you do before you're empty?

I'm not sure if everyone got too used to WoW where it was insanely easy for tanks to build more enmity than DDs or what. There is no problem with DDs being able to build more enmity than tanks as long as they don't do it lol. The tank's job is to build as much enmity as possible and negate as much damage. The better the tank, the more damage the DDs can do. Simple as that.

[Shiggysonson]

I think my issue is the jobs are supposed to be clearly better for party play while classes are better for solo, and it is apparent that the gains for PLD in either party or solo are not enough to warrant using it at all. Even if you have a BRD (which is now just doing ballad to make up for the PLD's MP recovery loss, and therefore making it difficult/impossible to buff others) GLA can still recover more MP and use it more than PLD can.

Then the problem isn't paladins not being able to manage MP; it's the fact that gladiator MP is just as useful for tanking as paladin MP.