The Problem with Paladin

[Phobos]

This post by Kiara I think sums up some of the changes that should be made to PLD. Many of these were discussed in the thread but I think Kiara sums them up best and adds to them nicely:

Hi Phobos and All,

Great thread with many great ideas. I definitely agree with most of the ideas here.

While I was really looking forward to Paladin, compared to Warrior and what you lose from switching from Gladiator (Class) to --> Paladin (Job), there needs to be some key adjustments.

(These were all mentioned in some form on this thread, but I wanted to show my support and let the Development Team know that we have another "vote" to fix Paladin)...

• Paladin needs a Significant Defense Boost. It was stated in his current Job Description from Square that Paladin should be the highest Defense role, but compared to Warrior or just going on Gladiator, it's not noticeable enough.
  
  I was helping on multiple AF Fights (going on Paladin with multiple instances of friends going on Warrior) and the damage they took while still being able to tank really marginalized Paladin (especially with the much higher Damage Dealing ability of Warrior).

• Paladin needs a greater Enmity Boost (inherent to the Job). If Yoshida-san wants to keep Paladin as the "main tank," there needs to be greater threat generation. Whether that's a global boost to all Enmity Values on all actions used on a Paladin, or some other method, something should be done here.

• Paladin needs increased Block Rate (globally). When Warrior can deal out massive Damage with attacks and Weaponskills, and still Parry, *and* use Featherfoot for Evade, the Paladin's Block (w/ Shield) needs to be a more effective ability than it is right now.

• Also agree that Paladin should have at least one ability that helps them gain *some* MP back (nothing that would invalidate Bard, but something like Featherfoot was useful helping Gladiator get some MP back every so often).

• Increase Duration and Add Enmity to "Hallowed Ground." I know it's not a "2 Hour" (like Invincible in FF11), but a slightly increased duration for Hallowed Ground and a big Enmity Bonus would be a nice way to make this a more standout move for Paladin.

• Consider adding in 1 AOE (Area-of-effect) Weaponskill (like Gladiator's old Circle Slash II) that could help *just a little bit* when tanking Multiple Mobs better. Yes, we have Flash and War Drum, but it still feels that Paladin has very little else to do to help tank multiple mobs (it doesn't have to be anywhere close to Warrior (that's fine), but Paladin is weak in this facet of the game)).

And like Phobos and others have said, I *don't* want them to nerf Warrior (I have fun playing my Warrior as well); I'm hoping they just balance it so that Paladin is a standout Job that's marked by very noticeable High Defense that can shrug off damage better than Warrior.

Here's to hoping Yoshida-san looks at everyone's feedback on Paladin and we get some improvements soon.

Thanks~

Hello,

I haven't seen any discussions post-update here about the Paladin job (which I am loving right now), so I figured I'd start one with my opinions. I'm hoping others can bring in their opinions/strategies as well; in order to help others figure out the job or identify the problems.

Firstly, just to lay out some things I think work perfectly for Paladin:

1. Spirits within is amazing.
2. Coupled with a White Mage, our survivability is great
3. Cover is nice, as is hallowed ground (though admittedly they are a tad underwhelming and I don't use them all that much)
4. Divine Veil and Holy Succor are great boosts to the job
5. The AF is just awesome looking and has nice stats to it

All that being said, the problem I have with Paladin is this:

I noticed this issue first in a spiritbond party, and thought nothing much of it because it was happening infrequently enough. It was not until I attempted an Ifrit that I noticed the severity of this problem.

Paladin has no reliable method to recover MP. As I said, at first I thought this was fine - I was running out of MP at a reasonable pace which didn't seem to cause any issues for me. When attempting Ifrit, however, when I ran out of MP, I had no way of curing myself, and no way of getting MP back (I realize now some ether's are in order, which I will keep on hand for this exact situation.)

What I'm trying to say, though, is that as it stands right now Paladin is not nearly useful as Gladiator even in a full party situation, unless one of a few things is the case:

1. You have a Bard with you, and they can maintain Ballad (may or may not be the ideal song)
2. The fight will not last long enough for your MP pool to become an issue.
3. You have enough WHM's to make up for your loss of self-healing.

Our group got a Bard after the first attempt, though he was a little weary of having to keep Ballad on me, and I did not get a chance to test it out as I left before the party filled back up.

The problem is that Gladiator has the following abilities accessible over Paladin:

1. Second Wind
2. Featherfoot
3. Sanguine Rite

The first one is a self-heal that requires no MP (and now no TP, making it even more useful). The second two offer MP recovery for more cure usage. While Paladin does get a nice hefty cure, it can only use it a handful of times before it runs out of MP. A Gladiator has a lot more longevity to it, as the abilities Paladin gains do not cover what it loses. Cover, Divine Veil, Spirits Within, Holy Succor, Hallowed Ground - none of these are truly Necessities, just nice boosts (Spirits Within is nice damage, Divine Veil is somewhat redundant and clunky to use, etc.)

I don't mean to complain, but I just find it odd that Gladiator has more survivability than Paladin, and has roughly the same enmity generation tools (aside from Spirits Within every 1:30 or whatever the recast is, and Holy Succor the few times you can use it). I understand that offering too much MP recovery would make things too easy, but Paladin should get some MP recovery so that being on it over Gladiator is not a detriment. I think this could be done in one or two ways:

1. Enhance/Fix Outmaneuver - I've only ever seen this return single digit MP on the rare occasion I block with it up. Both the rate of block and the MP return should be boosted so that this is not relatively useless. (do this regardless, this ability is seriously garbage right now)
2. Change Spirits Within's combo bonus to return MP instead of do more damage based on HP - While I enjoy the damage this gives, it does not outweigh the MP recovery Gladiator has, and would be a good place for an MP recovery tool due to it's recast being somewhat long, but not too long.
3. Actually make the difference between GLA and PLD defense/attack change meaningful. Perhaps even a slight accuracy loss/ block rate gain would be in order.

Apologies for the massive post, but I had a lot of thoughts I wanted to get out there. Eager to hear other Paladin's experiences and thoughts - particulary in regards to this problem (is it just me?, any suggestions?, is it fine to essentially require BRD when using PLD?).

Also, any other commentaries on Paladin Vs Gladiator are welcome!

[syntaxlies]

Hello,

I haven't seen any discussions post-update here about the Paladin job (which I am loving right now), so I figured I'd start one with my opinions. I'm hoping others can bring in their opinions/strategies as well; in order to help others figure out the job or identify the problems.

Firstly, just to lay out some things I think work perfectly for Paladin:

1. Spirits within is amazing.
2. Coupled with a White Mage, our survivability is great
3. Cover is nice, as is hallowed ground (though admittedly they are a tad underwhelming and I don't use them all that much)
4. Divine Veil and Holy Succor are great boosts to the job
5. The AF is just awesome looking and has nice stats to it

All that being said, the problem I have with Paladin is this:

I noticed this issue first in a spiritbond party, and thought nothing much of it because it was happening infrequently enough. It was not until I attempted an Ifrit that I noticed the severity of this problem.

Paladin has no reliable method to recover MP. As I said, at first I thought this was fine - I was running out of MP at a reasonable pace which didn't seem to cause any issues for me. When attempting Ifrit, however, when I ran out of MP, I had no way of curing myself, and no way of getting MP back (I realize now some ether's are in order, which I will keep on hand for this exact situation.)

What I'm trying to say, though, is that as it stands right now Paladin is not nearly useful as Gladiator even in a full party situation, unless one of a few things is the case:

1. You have a Bard with you, and they can maintain Ballad (may or may not be the ideal song)
2. The fight will not last long enough for your MP pool to become an issue.
3. You have enough WHM's to make up for your loss of self-healing.

Our group got a Bard after the first attempt, though he was a little weary of having to keep Ballad on me, and I did not get a chance to test it out as I left before the party filled back up.

The problem is that Gladiator has the following abilities accessible over Paladin:

1. Second Wind
2. Featherfoot
3. Sanguine Rite

The first one is a self-heal that requires no MP (and now no TP, making it even more useful). The second two offer MP recovery for more cure usage. While Paladin does get a nice hefty cure, it can only use it a handful of times before it runs out of MP. A Gladiator has a lot more longevity to it, as the abilities Paladin gains do not cover what it loses. Cover, Divine Veil, Spirits Within, Holy Succor, Hallowed Ground - none of these are truly Necessities, just nice boosts (Spirits Within is nice damage, Divine Veil is somewhat redundant and clunky to use, etc.)

I don't mean to complain, but I just find it odd that Gladiator has more survivability than Paladin, and has roughly the same enmity generation tools (aside from Spirits Within every 1:30 or whatever the recast is, and Holy Succor the few times you can use it). I understand that offering too much MP recovery would make things too easy, but Paladin should get some MP recovery so that being on it over Gladiator is not a detriment. I think this could be done in one or two ways:

1. Enhance/Fix Outmaneuver - I've only ever seen this return single digit MP on the rare occasion I block with it up. Both the rate of block and the MP return should be boosted so that this is not relatively useless.
2. Change Spirits Within's combo bonus to return MP instead of do more damage based on HP - While I enjoy the damage this gives, it does not outweigh the MP recovery Gladiator has, and would be a good place for an MP recovery tool due to it's recast being somewhat long, but not too long.

Apologies for the massive post, but I had a lot of thoughts I wanted to get out there. Eager to hear other Paladin's experiences and thoughts - particulary in regards to this problem (is it just me?, any suggestions?, is it fine to essentially require BRD when using PLD?).

Also, any other commentaries on Paladin Vs Gladiator are welcome!

did you try using mega-ethers

[Phobos]

did you try using mega-ethers

I mentioned that I did not, and would try ethers in the future. Perhaps this is the solution, I guess it just seems odd Gladiator can recover MP yet does not use it much, but Paladin cannot recover MP and relies exclusively on it.

With the boost WAR got, it seems to be a much better tank right now as it has HP recovery without relying on MP.

[CrownedClown]

did you try using mega-ethers

Did you read his post all the way through? :P He mentions he learnt he should carry some ethers. I'm interested in this actually, as Im hoping to unlock pld this evening. Then again I don't think its to much hassle to simply be gld for certain fights.

[syntaxlies]

Did you try reading his post all the way through? :P He mentions he learnt he should carry some ethers.

Yes I did, if i missed it then that's my bad, its not he end of the world. I was curious to how much mp they give as i have not tried them myself.

[Phobos]

Yes I did, if i missed it then that's my bad, its not he end of the world. I was curious to how much mp they give as i have not tried them myself.

I think you may be right in this being the solution - I had not thought of it myself until about halfway through writing my post. I guess I'm just used to not using them due to playing a certain MMO for years where they were almost entirely useless...

[CrownedClown]

Yes I did, if i missed it then that's my bad, its not he end of the world. I was curious to how much mp they give as i have not tried them myself.

Literally just edited my post because I didn't read it before posting and thought it came across wrong. ^^ Must admit I've only ever used the occasional ether here and there, and only if I'd picked them up from leves or something.

[syntaxlies]

I think you may be right in this being the solution - I had not thought of it myself until about halfway through writing my post. I guess I'm just used to not using them due to playing a certain MMO for years where they were almost entirely useless...

I would guess they give 250mp and with a cool down you would have to use them often, not just when you run out. Just a guess though, ill try them later. As for your other point though, glad still may be a better tank unless you have a bard that is watching your mp to cast sanguine rite on you.

[FraenirVolsung]

I really could not agree more. I was actually debating the exact thing last night while doing AF battles and new dungeons. To me, there is actually very little difference between Gladiator and Paladin in terms of tanking ability and survivability. I actually think I prefer Gladiator for the exact reasons you mentioned. Gladiator has some ways of restoring MP, a free parry with Foresight, a free dodge + MP recovery with Featherfoot, and Second Wind.

From an equipment/stat standpoint. I thought SE said that Paladin was going to have a defensive boost at the cost of offense when compared with Gladiator. If so, I don't see it. Paladin has approximately 10 more VIT and 10 less STR than Gladiator. As we all know, it takes way more than 10 of any stat to make any sort of noticeable difference. Also, the AF armor is great looking, but other than the +Enmity, there really are no other stats that make any of it better than my single, double or triple melded crafted gear. Even the defense on the AF is exactly the same as that found on the Cobalt Plate set.

I think you are spot on, Phobos. I don't see anything out there right now that Gladiator wouldn't do equally well as Paladin.

[Andrien]

pld should get auto refresh, or the dev team can make equipment that mitigate some damage to restore a small percentage of mp, or add equipments that adds refresh. they could just implement all these ideas.