The Problem with Paladin

[Reaujien]

All of this is doable on GLA except for Holy Succor, which you mentioned is not that large compared to other abilities for enmity. GLA can also recover MP so it can do more AOE Cures over a long fight than PLD.

Edit: There's that word "threat" again... What's next, toon?

That's not what I said (referring to what's in bold). I said well-placed/timed Holy Succors or SP > Cure generates a great amount of threat on their own, but coupled with (all the other abilities I listed) PLDs can generate a lot of threat in addition to healing. I didn't say one was larger than the other, but only that when used together (healing + other abilities) PDLs can, again, generate a lot of threat.

And, I'm not sure if you knew this but Outmaneuver recovers MP/block on a PLD. Unless I missed something on the patch notes and they changed that (which, I will completely stand corrected if so).

GLA can recover MP on their own with Featherfoot and Sanguine right. However, Featherfoot isn't 100% chance to evade, which means you won't get MP back if you don't evade (and yes, I've seen my Featherfoot buff timer drop to 0 before). And Sanguine Rite costs a good chunk of MP (with consideration to GLAs MP pool), and sometimes the MP you gain back doesn't cover the cost of using it, or the net amount gained is very minute.

I just.. I mean, it sounds like you're having a lot of MP-management issues on PLD compared to GLA, which sucks. I just don't agree with your point of view that GLAs are somehow far superior in management their MP compared to PLDs. One has an advantage over the other, yeah for sure, but I wouldn't suggest one is "better" to use the majority of the time or that one is "useless", or w/e, etc. etc.

BTW, there's a video on youtube of a certain "Dr." (hint hint) fighting the first boss in Cutter's Cry... using a PLD.... without a BRD... and the PLD didn't lose hate once. Again, I think it all just boils down to tactics.

[Phobos]

That's not what I said (referring to what's in bold). I said well-placed/timed Holy Succors or SP > Cure generates a great amount of threat on their own, but coupled with (all the other abilities I listed) PLDs can generate a lot of threat in addition to healing. I didn't say one was larger than the other, but only that when used together (healing + other abilities) PDLs can, again, generate a lot of threat.

And, I'm not sure if you knew this but Outmaneuver recovers MP/block on a PLD. Unless I missed something on the patch notes and they changed that (which, I will completely stand corrected if so).

GLA can recover MP on their own with Featherfoot and Sanguine right. However, Featherfoot isn't 100% chance to evade, which means you won't get MP back if you don't evade (and yes, I've seen my Featherfoot buff timer drop to 0 before). And Sanguine Rite costs a good chunk of MP (with consideration to GLAs MP pool), and sometimes the MP you gain back doesn't cover the cost of using it, or the net amount gained is very minute.

I just.. I mean, it sounds like you're having a lot of MP-management issues on PLD compared to GLA, which sucks. I just don't agree with your point of view that GLAs are somehow far superior in management their MP compared to PLDs. One has an advantage over the other, yeah for sure, but I wouldn't suggest one is "better" to use the majority of the time or that one is "useless", or w/e, etc. etc.

BTW, there's a video on youtube of a certain "Dr." (hint hint) fighting the first boss in Cutter's Cry... using a PLD.... without a BRD... and the PLD didn't lose hate once. Again, I think it all just boils down to tactics.

I don't care about hate, I'm fine with hate. I also have mentioned Outmaneuver quite a bit and how useless it is.

PLD has no MP recovery available to it (no, Outmaneuver does not count, 9MP every few times you use it is nothing more than a bad joke)
GLA has plenty of MP recovery available to it, and access to a free self heal.

I think the problem is more that PLD hasn't gained much over GLA in terms of defense etc (it was supposed to), and the abilities it has access to don't supplement that enough (imho). GLA ends up with better survivability. My issue is that the point of a tank is to keep something attacking you, and not die. PLD gains nothing over GLA for this, and actually loses abilities that help you to not die.

I'll have to take a look at the Cutter's Cry video, but I'm guessing there's less need for healing people other than the PLD, which would make up for this. If the individual fights were shorter, though, this problem would not have come up. We also had a pick up group, though, the quality of which I cannot attest to. I could have just had more pressure on me to use heals because the WHM was busy healing other people that were doing things wrong.

I guess I just found it odd when I was standing there, cycling through my abilities toward the end when the realization hit me that I was out of MP and had no way of keeping myself alive other than a bloodbath that while nice, was not enough. It was just very surprising at the time and strikes me as odd that GLA has just as many enmity tools as PLD, and more survival tools. This would be fine if the buff to defense/damage taken for PLD was better.

[kro]

That's not what I said (referring to what's in bold). I said well-placed/timed Holy Succors or SP > Cure generates a great amount of threat on their own, but coupled with (all the other abilities I listed) PLDs can generate a lot of threat in addition to healing. I didn't say one was larger than the other, but only that when used together (healing + other abilities) PDLs can, again, generate a lot of threat.

And, I'm not sure if you knew this but Outmaneuver recovers MP/block on a PLD. Unless I missed something on the patch notes and they changed that (which, I will completely stand corrected if so).

GLA can recover MP on their own with Featherfoot and Sanguine right. However, Featherfoot isn't 100% chance to evade, which means you won't get MP back if you don't evade (and yes, I've seen my Featherfoot buff timer drop to 0 before). And Sanguine Rite costs a good chunk of MP (with consideration to GLAs MP pool), and sometimes the MP you gain back doesn't cover the cost of using it, or the net amount gained is very minute.

I just.. I mean, it sounds like you're having a lot of MP-management issues on PLD compared to GLA, which sucks. I just don't agree with your point of view that GLAs are somehow far superior in management their MP compared to PLDs. One has an advantage over the other, yeah for sure, but I wouldn't suggest one is "better" to use the majority of the time or that one is "useless", or w/e, etc. etc.

BTW, there's a video on youtube of a certain "Dr." (hint hint) fighting the first boss in Cutter's Cry... using a PLD.... without a BRD... and the PLD didn't lose hate once. Again, I think it all just boils down to tactics.

I think he mentioned that the rate of MP recovery on Outmaneuver was insignificant compared to how much MP spells cost. Also, one of the advantages of Featherfoot is damage avoidance, not just MP recovery. Having it, and especially Second Wind as instant abilities is a fairly reliable panic-button when Sentinel is on cooldown. I know PLD gets hallowed ground, but that's 15 minutes.

I don't think anyone is arguing that PLD is incapable of tanking. It's that PLD is not necessarily any better than GLA while GLA remains more versatile than a PLD.

WAR is better than MRD as a DD-tank. MNK, DRG, and BLM are definitely better as DDs. WHM and BRD are much better at their intended roles while having practically zero downsides over CON and ARC. I would expect PLD to be a little better than it currently is.

[Andrien]

It's not like curing is 90% or even 80% of their total threat generating abilities combined. Yeah, it's definitely a fundamental part of it, but I disagree that it's the primary source. A few well-placed/timed Holy Succors on party members or a well-timed Sacred Prism > Cure generates a great deal amount of threat on their own - couple those with Provoke, Flash, Flat Blade combo, Sentinel, Rampart, War Drum, and even just straight damage, there's a lot a PLD can do to hold threat in addition to healing.

It's not like you have to keep spamming your curing spells all the time - you'll just drain your MP pool.

There is a lot of damage dealers out there too to consider how quickly they can generate enmity. You can cure them as well to keep enmity but how much of that can you do before you're empty?

[Shiggysonson]

There is a lot of damage dealers out there too to consider how quickly they can generate enmity. You can cure them as well to keep enmity but how much of that can you do before you're empty?

I'm not sure if everyone got too used to WoW where it was insanely easy for tanks to build more enmity than DDs or what. There is no problem with DDs being able to build more enmity than tanks as long as they don't do it lol. The tank's job is to build as much enmity as possible and negate as much damage. The better the tank, the more damage the DDs can do. Simple as that.

[Andrien]

I'm not sure if everyone got too used to WoW where it was insanely easy for tanks to build more enmity than DDs or what. There is no problem with DDs being able to build more enmity than tanks as long as they don't do it lol. The tank's job is to build as much enmity as possible and negate as much damage. The better the tank, the more damage the DDs can do. Simple as that.

I never played WoW but I played FFXI since 2004 to now. What I'm saying is. MP is one of the main tools for pld, and if by chance you lose enmity to a damage dealer, you might want to cure them to keep hate control, and on top of that curing yourself while you're at it.

edit: There should be some way to lessen the burden just a little bit.

[Reaujien]

There is a lot of damage dealers out there too to consider how quickly they can generate enmity. You can cure them as well to keep enmity but how much of that can you do before you're empty?

Yeah... but.... again... you don't need to rely on your MP to keep 100% of your threat. I mean, MP for a PLD isn't like 4 legs to a table: That is, PLDs have other "legs" they can boost their threat with (if you understand the analogy).

Also, DD classes have enmity-reduction capabilities. That, and, it's not hard to just ease off the DD. And, of course, if for w/e reason the DDs just can't pump enough damage to kill the mob before say a timer runs out or a mechanic is triggered, etc. etc., then either the PLD needs to rethink his/her play strategy, or perhaps the strategy for the entire party needs to be reevaluated.

For me, MP isn't the "end all, be all" for keeping threat. So far, I feel I've been able to hold threat pretty well in most situations; unless of course some DD like a BLM who ate paint chips as a child decided to unload his/her MP pool right at the beginning of a fight.

[Andrien]

Yeah... but.... again... you don't need to rely on your MP to keep 100% of your threat. I mean, MP for a PLD isn't like 4 legs to a table: That is, PLDs have other "legs" they can boost their threat with (if you understand the analogy).

Also, DD classes have enmity-reduction capabilities. That, and, it's not hard to just ease off the DD. And, of course, if for w/e reason the DDs just can't pump enough damage to kill the mob before say a timer runs out or a mechanic is triggered, etc. etc., then either the PLD needs to rethink his/her play strategy, or perhaps the strategy for the entire party needs to be reevaluated.

For me, MP isn't the "end all, be all" for keeping threat. So far, I feel I've been able to hold threat pretty well in most situations; unless of course some DD like a BLM who ate paint chips as a child decided to unload his/her MP pool right at the beginning of a fight.

I'm thinking of long fights regarding MP. To me, if there is a PLD in party, you should feel safe enough to not hold back. People will naturally think the PLD will grab hate right away again, but you cant do that if you run low on MP to quickly if provoke is not enough.

[Phobos]

I think my issue is the jobs are supposed to be clearly better for party play while classes are better for solo, and it is apparent that the gains for PLD in either party or solo are not enough to warrant using it at all. Even if you have a BRD (which is now just doing ballad to make up for the PLD's MP recovery loss, and therefore making it difficult/impossible to buff others) GLA can still recover more MP and use it more than PLD can.

[Shiggysonson]

I think my issue is the jobs are supposed to be clearly better for party play while classes are better for solo, and it is apparent that the gains for PLD in either party or solo are not enough to warrant using it at all. Even if you have a BRD (which is now just doing ballad to make up for the PLD's MP recovery loss, and therefore making it difficult/impossible to buff others) GLA can still recover more MP and use it more than PLD can.

Then the problem isn't paladins not being able to manage MP; it's the fact that gladiator MP is just as useful for tanking as paladin MP.