The Problem with Paladin

[Reaujien]

So far I haven't come across any "issues" while using PLD with regard to it's job performance - that is, a role that can take hits and keep threat. Yeah a couple abilities I would agree are a bit underwhelming (Cover and DV), but I'm guessing I just haven't been in a situation yet where using them really made a noticeable difference.

The thing with Jobs that you (and everyone else for that matter) need to keep in the back of your head is that they're meant for very specific purposes, and only really shine when used in a party-setting with other Jobs. BRD is the Job that is meant to provide support that classes were accustomed to providing their own support with through cross-classing other abilities such as, for example, Sanguine Rite for [selective] MP replenishment. BLMs besides magic damage provide crowd-controling techniques. And so on for the other Jobs.

Sometimes you need Jobs A, B, and D; whereas other times you'll need Jobs A, C, and E; etc. etc.- that is, you might have to play around with your party setup. Other times you'll need Job C of you use Job A (e.g., having a BRD when using a PLD tank) or it just won't work. If you don't have a BRD for your PLD tank on Ifrit, then perhaps either going GLA or using a WAR tank might be the better strategy instead.

(And, btw, BRDs can keep different songs up on different members of the party - they just have to reposition themselves to their songs only hit the players they want. That is, it's easy to keep Ballad of the Magi on the tank/mages while keeping another song o the ranged/melee DD)

[Andrien]

Higher block rate is not going to solve the problem. PLD role is none other than to keep enmity, survive heavy damage, and their main source of survival and keeping enmity is in their MP and abilities. If GLA can do better in managing MP, and controlling enmity then it is not balanced.

[Shiggysonson]

My issue is that the gains for PLD over GLA are minimal, and being on PLD now requires a BRD, as its the only way to recover MP. I don't want it to be too easy just giving you MP, but as it stands PLD is useless because it cannot recover MP at all. Perhaps I'm just used to games where there was at least some minimal MP/Whateveritisinthatgame recovery for each class on its own, but also multiple classes that could recover MP for others, as opposed to just one.

The problem is on PLD, when you run out of MP you're SOL, as opposed to GLA which can get 2 MP recovery moves, 1 of which is also a stalling move, and one free heal. The only GLA/PLD MP recovery ability (which infers there was an intention for GLA/PLD to be able to recover MP somewhat) is total garbage as it restores about 5% the MP needed to cast cure, and almost never works.

From what I am seeing right now, GLA is better for both solo and party play, which from what I gather what was intended.

Yes, MP shouldn't be easy to recover yourself but you should be able to get some back without the use of meds or a bard - particularly seeing as the only healing moves we have require it.

I see what you're saying, and if paladins really are worse than gladiators in a balanced party, then I agree the paladin job needs to be adjusted. I just don't think taking away the usefulness of a support role is the right way to do it. They can just make it so the MP of paladins are more useful/important than gladiator MP. In other words, give paladins spells that make them significantly better than gladiators as long as they have MP.

[Phobos]

So far I haven't come across any "issues" while using PLD with regard to it's job performance - that is, a role that can take hits and keep threat. Yeah a couple abilities I would agree are a bit underwhelming (Cover and DV), but I'm guessing I just haven't been in a situation yet where using them really made a noticeable difference.

The thing with Jobs that you (and everyone else for that matter) need to keep in the back of your head is that they're meant for very specific purposes, and only really shine when used in a party-setting with other Jobs. BRD is the Job that is meant to provide support that classes were accustomed to providing their own support with through cross-classing other abilities such as, for example, Sanguine Rite for [selective] MP replenishment. BLMs besides magic damage provide crowd-controling techniques. And so on for the other Jobs.

Sometimes you need Jobs A, B, and D; whereas other times you'll need Jobs A, C, and E; etc. etc.- that is, you might have to play around with your party setup. Other times you'll need Job C of you use Job A (e.g., having a BRD when using a PLD tank) or it just won't work. If you don't have a BRD for your PLD tank on Ifrit, then perhaps either going GLA or using a WAR tank might be the better strategy instead.

(And, btw, BRDs can keep different songs up on different members of the party - they just have to reposition themselves to their songs only hit the players they want. That is, it's easy to keep Ballad of the Magi on the tank/mages while keeping another song o the ranged/melee DD)

Wtf is threat? Personally, I try to hold hate/enmity.

On a serious note, I don't know if you've attempted Ifrit or something similar on PLD (One long, drawn out fight where youre MP pool actually has a chance to get exhausted) but as I mentioned, I did not think this was an issue until I had a fight my MP actually got exhausted.

I do understand the whole using a BRD thing, but there are a few issues with that - the first being that a PLD now requires a BRD, and needs them to keep Ballad on them. In some situations this may mean either ignoring the rest of the party or giving everyone Ballad, or the BRD needing to run around to get everyone songs. It's not horrible but its a bit clunky.

I hate to bring up FFXI, particularly as I don't want too many of it's concepts adopted here, but for PLD there, MP was less of an issue for a few reasons:

2 Jobs could refresh, PLD also had auto-refresh and some gear that gave it available.
Block rate didn't suck horribly, so you would actually sometimes block a decent ammount of Damage.
It's much easier when you have an 18 man group to get a BRD or a RDM or both with your PLD

Just to bring more than one game for comparison, I also played DCUO for a bit, where tanks had a few options as well:
Multiple power refreshing jobs - there are as many healing classes as there are refreshers and tanks.
Everyone has an inherent power regeneration that while relatively minimal, is noticeable enough.

[Phobos]

Higher block rate is not going to solve the problem. PLD role is none other than to keep enmity, survive heavy damage, and their main source of survival and keeping enmity is in their MP and abilities. If GLA can do better in managing MP, and controlling enmity then it is not balanced.

I agree with this, and if this were the case it would be fine. Right now as you mention, GLA is definitely better at MP management, and PLD has no enmity generation moves over GLA aside from a 2 minute recast weaponskill.

Also, in terms of taking damage PLD has little to nothing over say WAR or GLA, which I beleive relates to block rate as well as overall defense.

[Shiggysonson]

Higher block rate is not going to solve the problem. PLD role is none other than to keep enmity, survive heavy damage, and their main source of survival and keeping enmity is in their MP and abilities. If GLA can do better in managing MP, and controlling enmity then it is not balanced.

So lets say paladins do get a better way of managing MP. What will happen to bards? Sure bards have other good abilities that make them great, but giving this ability to paladins is just adding another reason to take a black mage over a bard. Look at the big picture.

As I said, there are other ways to make paladins better than gladiators in a balanced party without ruining the balance of the system.

[Phobos]

So lets say paladins do get a better way of managing MP. What will happen to bards? Sure bards have other good abilities that make them great, but giving this ability to paladins is just adding another reason to take a black mage over a bard. Look at the big picture.

As I said, there are other ways to make paladins better than gladiators in a balanced party without ruining the balance of the system.

I do want to see BRD being used for its purpose, but I think its kind of silly that it basically NEEDS to refresh the PLD and likely the WHM. What about the other 5 people? They aren't necessarily mages and may be too close to the WHM or PLD where it's not easy to give them too many buffs. That and BRD should still be able to DD some rather than run around singing to everyone.

[Andrien]

I see what you're saying, and if paladins really are worse than gladiators in a balanced party, then I agree the paladin job needs to be adjusted. I just don't think taking away the usefulness of a support role is the right way to do it. They can just make it so the MP of paladins are more useful/important than gladiator MP. In other words, give paladins spells that make them significantly better than gladiators as long as they have MP.

I can think of a few what if problems that might occur that'll result in down time for mp regarding PLD.
GLA tank is likely the best choice for these still.

long boss fight
time limits
large scale battles
EXP Parties

[Reaujien]

Higher block rate is not going to solve the problem. PLD role is none other than to keep enmity, survive heavy damage, and their main source of survival and keeping enmity is in their MP and abilities. If GLA can do better in managing MP, and controlling enmity then it is not balanced.

It's not like curing is 90% or even 80% of their total threat generating abilities combined. Yeah, it's definitely a fundamental part of it, but I disagree that it's the primary source. A few well-placed/timed Holy Succors on party members or a well-timed Sacred Prism > Cure generates a great deal amount of threat on their own - couple those with Provoke, Flash, Flat Blade combo, Sentinel, Rampart, War Drum, and even just straight damage, there's a lot a PLD can do to hold threat in addition to healing.

It's not like you have to keep spamming your curing spells all the time - you'll just drain your MP pool.

[Phobos]

It's not like curing is 90% or even 80% of their total threat generating abilities combined. Yeah, it's definitely a fundamental part of it, but I disagree that it's the primary source. A few well-placed/timed Holy Succors on party members or a well-timed Sacred Prism > Cure generates a great deal amount of threat on their own - couple those with Provoke, Flash, Flat Blade combo, Sentinel, Rampart, War Drum, and even just straight damage, there's a lot a PLD can do to hold threat in addition to healing.

It's not like you have to keep spamming your curing spells all the time - you'll just drain your MP pool.

All of this is doable on GLA except for Holy Succor, which you mentioned is not that large compared to other abilities for enmity. GLA can also recover MP so it can do more AOE Cures over a long fight than PLD.

Edit: There's that word "threat" again... What's next, toon?