The Problem with Paladin

[syntaxlies]

I think my issue is the jobs are supposed to be clearly better for party play while classes are better for solo, and it is apparent that the gains for PLD in either party or solo are not enough to warrant using it at all. Even if you have a BRD (which is now just doing ballad to make up for the PLD's MP recovery loss, and therefore making it difficult/impossible to buff others) GLA can still recover more MP and use it more than PLD can.

In the event you dont have a well rounded party maybe you should use glad. Jobs are for party play as we all know and to make full use of jobs they will have to work together. You will have to rely on a bard to help you with mp so you can have other ability's that help you tank. I know we all know this already but it seems to becoming a surprise to some people. To say you don't want to rely on a bard for mp is the same as saying you don't want to rely on whm's for cures. Bard is a party buffer and I truly believe there is a reason its the only class that can cast sanguine rite on others(and in ifrit a good timing SR will recover all your mp).

[Signy]

Auto-Refresh will be nice to have on PLD. On XI the PLD have it. Even a 10/tick refresh will be awesome.

[kro]

I think OP hit the nail on the head.

I've been talking about this with my LS and they agree that GLA is better because it can sustain itself better. In terms of kiting, GLA gets access to Featherfoot, Second Wind, Decoy, and Sanguine Rite. I would take these abilities any day over Holy Succor, especially since you are now required to completely stop moving to Cure yourself.

I also feel that Spirits Within has too long of a recast. If you compare to WAR, Steel Cyclone has a 30 second recast and finishes their "tanking combo" (Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder (increases enmity) > Steel Cyclone) while GLA and PLD only get Fast > Flat.

Cover is underwhelming in general. It needs a shorter recast or the ability to block all attacks for a set duration to be useful.

While PLD with ballad is pretty good at surviving in straight-tank situations, I think the larger HP pool, better DD potential, and threat generation of WAR make it the better tank especially with how good of a healer WHM is now. It also doesn't require a BRD to put itself in danger to stick ballad on the tank.

[Phobos]

I think OP hit the nail on the head.

I've been talking about this with my LS and they agree that GLA is better because it can sustain itself better. In terms of kiting, GLA gets access to Featherfoot, Second Wind, Decoy, and Sanguine Rite. I would take these abilities any day over Holy Succor, especially since you are now required to completely stop moving to Cure yourself.

I also feel that Spirits Within has too long of a recast. If you compare to WAR, Steel Cyclone has a 30 second recast and finishes their "tanking combo" (Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder (increases enmity) > Steel Cyclone) while GLA and PLD only get Fast > Flat.

Cover is underwhelming in general. It needs a shorter recast or the ability to block all attacks for a set duration to be useful.

While PLD with ballad is pretty good at surviving in straight-tank situations, I think the larger HP pool, better DD potential, and threat generation of WAR make it the better tank especially with how good of a healer WHM is now. It also doesn't require a BRD to put itself in danger to stick ballad on the tank.

Exactly! The problem is WAR actually got a lot of tanking buffs with a resource pool they can replenish easily (TP). PLD's resource for healing is nonexistent without a BRD, and they have almost nothing in terms of gains over GLA.

In terms of having a BLM use SP > SR and things like that, I get it but it's asking a lot of PUG's. I'm sure with a LS that uses vent it's fine, but I don't think things like that can be expected. This also requires THM, as BLM cannot use SP.

The whole BRD thing, I still say should not be required but very nice. You should want to have a BRD but not have to. FFXI (again I hate comparing to it) had multiple refresh jobs, and you werent totally screwed without one. The problem with forcing people to have one is now you can't do much unless you have WHM PLD BRD, which while I understand the diversity and fully want there to be a spread of jobs within a party, I don't beleive there should be much in terms of requiring certain jobs. Right now as it stands for most things you need a WHM, and a PLD or WAR - having to get a BRD as well is just serving to make things more difficult to set up.

A BRD is meant to buff, it should not be required to get BRD buffs to do something, particularly with 8 spots to fill as opposed to FFXI's 18.

EDIT: Also, in response to the other guy. Where did you pick up the word threat? That's a WoW term afaik, FFXI was enmity/hate. I personally just despise the WoW terms...

[Reaujien]

EDIT: Also, in response to the other guy. Where did you pick up the word threat? That's a WoW term afaik, FFXI was enmity/hate. I personally just despise the WoW terms...

...ROFL... I mean, just PURE ROFL...

Go figure: I have a differing point of view than you do, and so instead of trying to look at them objectively, you autonomously decide to make a childish ad hominem reply..... LOL oh man... You're definitely touched that's for sure.

[Phobos]

...ROFL... I mean, just PURE ROFL...

Go figure: I have a differing point of view than you do, and so instead of trying to look at them objectively, you autonomously decide to make a childish ad hominem reply..... LOL oh man... You're definitely touched that's for sure.

Okay sure, ignore all the replies I have made to you and take a look at the side-note about your word choice and my aversion to it.

Seriously though, where did people pick that up? I just hate the term almost as much as toon its so grating to my ears I can't even explain why.

Either way, all I'm trying to get at is that PLD has two main purposes

Make the mob attack you.
Don't die.

GLA can do the first just as well as PLD, and the second even better. That is the issue I'm trying to get at. I don't necessarily want PLD to have an infinite MP pool, I'd be fine if it just took less damage. The issue is that GLA can tank better than PLD.

This is all relatively inconsequential right now though, as WAR is by far the best tank right now.

[Saiph]

The problem isnt Paladin. Its Gladiator or rather the armory/crossability system. They need to somehow nerve crossclassabilties for classes.
Maybe something like this:
when you play solo (as a class) everything is as it is righ now in the game.
2 player party = abilties that arent from your main class lose 10% of their power.
3 player party = abilties that arent from your main class lose 15% of their power.
.......
8 player party = abilties that arent from your main class lose 40% of their power.
(just as you get the acc and hp/mp boost you get debuffs for crosclass abilities when you play as a class)
or they should rework the armory system til its balanced.

edit: not saying the whole armory system is imbalanced but there is some stuff like this thread shows.

[Signy]

The problem isnt Paladin. Its Gladiator or rather the armory/crossability system. They need to somehow nerve crossclassabilties for classes.
Maybe something like this:
when you play solo (as a class) everything is as it is righ now in the game.
2 player party = abilties that arent from your main class lose 10% of their power.
3 player party = abilties that arent from your main class lose 15% of their power.
.......
8 player party = abilties that arent from your main class lose 40% of their power.
(just as you get the acc and hp/mp boost you get debuffs for crosclass abilities when you play as a class)
or they should rework the armory system til its balanced.

edit: not saying the whole armory system is imbalanced but there is some stuff like this thread shows.

Balancing by nerfing everything old when they add something new? No, Thank you.

[Saiph]

Balancing by nerfing everything old when they add something new? No, Thank you.

the old is too strong in some situations. we can beat ifrit and moogles with classes, probably even better then we can beat them with the jobs. so rather then buff the jobs so it gets even easier then it was with classes. nerf the old stuff in some way. so jobs are prefered in parties, while the classes still have their place in solo play or small parties. also that was just an example.

edit: the problem isnt that jobs are too weak, but that classes are too strong.

[Signy]

the old is too strong in some situations. we can beat ifrit and moogles with classes, probably even better then we can beat them with the jobs. so rather then buff the jobs so it gets even easier then it was with classes. nerf the old stuff in some way. so jobs are prefered in parties, while the classes still have their place in solo play or small parties. also that was just an example.

edit: the problem isnt that jobs are too weak, but that classes are too strong.

So you think that to make the game more challenging SE should nerf the classes that are better that theirs corresponding jobs?