The Problem with Paladin

[Andrien]

Yeah... but.... again... you don't need to rely on your MP to keep 100% of your threat. I mean, MP for a PLD isn't like 4 legs to a table: That is, PLDs have other "legs" they can boost their threat with (if you understand the analogy).

Also, DD classes have enmity-reduction capabilities. That, and, it's not hard to just ease off the DD. And, of course, if for w/e reason the DDs just can't pump enough damage to kill the mob before say a timer runs out or a mechanic is triggered, etc. etc., then either the PLD needs to rethink his/her play strategy, or perhaps the strategy for the entire party needs to be reevaluated.

For me, MP isn't the "end all, be all" for keeping threat. So far, I feel I've been able to hold threat pretty well in most situations; unless of course some DD like a BLM who ate paint chips as a child decided to unload his/her MP pool right at the beginning of a fight.

I'm thinking of long fights regarding MP. To me, if there is a PLD in party, you should feel safe enough to not hold back. People will naturally think the PLD will grab hate right away again, but you cant do that if you run low on MP to quickly if provoke is not enough.

[Signy]

The problem isnt Paladin. Its Gladiator or rather the armory/crossability system. They need to somehow nerve crossclassabilties for classes.
Maybe something like this:
when you play solo (as a class) everything is as it is righ now in the game.
2 player party = abilties that arent from your main class lose 10% of their power.
3 player party = abilties that arent from your main class lose 15% of their power.
.......
8 player party = abilties that arent from your main class lose 40% of their power.
(just as you get the acc and hp/mp boost you get debuffs for crosclass abilities when you play as a class)
or they should rework the armory system til its balanced.

edit: not saying the whole armory system is imbalanced but there is some stuff like this thread shows.

Balancing by nerfing everything old when they add something new? No, Thank you.

[Phobos]

I think OP hit the nail on the head.

I've been talking about this with my LS and they agree that GLA is better because it can sustain itself better. In terms of kiting, GLA gets access to Featherfoot, Second Wind, Decoy, and Sanguine Rite. I would take these abilities any day over Holy Succor, especially since you are now required to completely stop moving to Cure yourself.

I also feel that Spirits Within has too long of a recast. If you compare to WAR, Steel Cyclone has a 30 second recast and finishes their "tanking combo" (Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder (increases enmity) > Steel Cyclone) while GLA and PLD only get Fast > Flat.

Cover is underwhelming in general. It needs a shorter recast or the ability to block all attacks for a set duration to be useful.

While PLD with ballad is pretty good at surviving in straight-tank situations, I think the larger HP pool, better DD potential, and threat generation of WAR make it the better tank especially with how good of a healer WHM is now. It also doesn't require a BRD to put itself in danger to stick ballad on the tank.

Exactly! The problem is WAR actually got a lot of tanking buffs with a resource pool they can replenish easily (TP). PLD's resource for healing is nonexistent without a BRD, and they have almost nothing in terms of gains over GLA.

In terms of having a BLM use SP > SR and things like that, I get it but it's asking a lot of PUG's. I'm sure with a LS that uses vent it's fine, but I don't think things like that can be expected. This also requires THM, as BLM cannot use SP.

The whole BRD thing, I still say should not be required but very nice. You should want to have a BRD but not have to. FFXI (again I hate comparing to it) had multiple refresh jobs, and you werent totally screwed without one. The problem with forcing people to have one is now you can't do much unless you have WHM PLD BRD, which while I understand the diversity and fully want there to be a spread of jobs within a party, I don't beleive there should be much in terms of requiring certain jobs. Right now as it stands for most things you need a WHM, and a PLD or WAR - having to get a BRD as well is just serving to make things more difficult to set up.

A BRD is meant to buff, it should not be required to get BRD buffs to do something, particularly with 8 spots to fill as opposed to FFXI's 18.

EDIT: Also, in response to the other guy. Where did you pick up the word threat? That's a WoW term afaik, FFXI was enmity/hate. I personally just despise the WoW terms...

[Kiote]

I don't understand how people are still ignoring the fact that JOBS ARE MADE FOR PARTIES.

You are not supposed to be self sufficient while on a job.

You are not supposed to be able to Take all the Damage, Deal all the Damage, Heal all the Damage and Recover MP all at once.

If your Paladin is running out of MP, your Bard is not Doing his job.

[Saiph]

Balancing by nerfing everything old when they add something new? No, Thank you.

the old is too strong in some situations. we can beat ifrit and moogles with classes, probably even better then we can beat them with the jobs. so rather then buff the jobs so it gets even easier then it was with classes. nerf the old stuff in some way. so jobs are prefered in parties, while the classes still have their place in solo play or small parties. also that was just an example.

edit: the problem isnt that jobs are too weak, but that classes are too strong.

[Phobos]

I don't understand how people are still ignoring the fact that JOBS ARE MADE FOR PARTIES.

You are not supposed to be self sufficient while on a job.

You are not supposed to be able to Take all the Damage, Deal all the Damage, Heal all the Damage and Recover MP all at once.

If your Paladin is running out of MP, your Bard is not Doing his job.

I get what you're saying, but the fact is PLD does nothing useful that GLA can't, and even if you have a BRD GLA still recovers more MP than PLD does, and uses it basically the same.

The only thing PLD has over GLA is AF and a bigger heal, which is basically just replacing Second Wind which is now free.

[Reaujien]

All of this is doable on GLA except for Holy Succor, which you mentioned is not that large compared to other abilities for enmity. GLA can also recover MP so it can do more AOE Cures over a long fight than PLD.

Edit: There's that word "threat" again... What's next, toon?

That's not what I said (referring to what's in bold). I said well-placed/timed Holy Succors or SP > Cure generates a great amount of threat on their own, but coupled with (all the other abilities I listed) PLDs can generate a lot of threat in addition to healing. I didn't say one was larger than the other, but only that when used together (healing + other abilities) PDLs can, again, generate a lot of threat.

And, I'm not sure if you knew this but Outmaneuver recovers MP/block on a PLD. Unless I missed something on the patch notes and they changed that (which, I will completely stand corrected if so).

GLA can recover MP on their own with Featherfoot and Sanguine right. However, Featherfoot isn't 100% chance to evade, which means you won't get MP back if you don't evade (and yes, I've seen my Featherfoot buff timer drop to 0 before). And Sanguine Rite costs a good chunk of MP (with consideration to GLAs MP pool), and sometimes the MP you gain back doesn't cover the cost of using it, or the net amount gained is very minute.

I just.. I mean, it sounds like you're having a lot of MP-management issues on PLD compared to GLA, which sucks. I just don't agree with your point of view that GLAs are somehow far superior in management their MP compared to PLDs. One has an advantage over the other, yeah for sure, but I wouldn't suggest one is "better" to use the majority of the time or that one is "useless", or w/e, etc. etc.

BTW, there's a video on youtube of a certain "Dr." (hint hint) fighting the first boss in Cutter's Cry... using a PLD.... without a BRD... and the PLD didn't lose hate once. Again, I think it all just boils down to tactics.

[kro]

I just use "threat" because it's a more general MMO term that everyone gets. I've had cases where I use "hate" and people think I'm insulting them or something.

[Shiggysonson]

I get what you're saying, but the fact is PLD does nothing useful that GLA can't, and even if you have a BRD GLA still recovers more MP than PLD does, and uses it basically the same.

The only thing PLD has over GLA is AF and a bigger heal, which is basically just replacing Second Wind which is now free.

Good point. I do think that of all the jobs, the paladin skills are the least "class-changing." A lot of jobs got great skills that are worth losing the cross-class abilities to get. I was hoping paladins would get more shield abilities to focus more on damage mitigation rather than a weaponskill that increases paladin damage a little.

[Signy]

the old is too strong in some situations. we can beat ifrit and moogles with classes, probably even better then we can beat them with the jobs. so rather then buff the jobs so it gets even easier then it was with classes. nerf the old stuff in some way. so jobs are prefered in parties, while the classes still have their place in solo play or small parties. also that was just an example.

edit: the problem isnt that jobs are too weak, but that classes are too strong.

So you think that to make the game more challenging SE should nerf the classes that are better that theirs corresponding jobs?