Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[Alleluia]

- In other words, Venat has gained the information she was confused about lacking before about her future self’s mindset. Namely, the picture we paint of the Sundered future, and Meteion's report. She decides to allow the Final Days to happen as a test of the Ancients, in the hopes that they will respond in what she views as the correct way, reflecting her view of using suffering to grow one’s internal strength and the ability to find “everlasting light.”

Regarding the bolded bit, how does Venat "allow" the Final Days to happen? How could she have stopped them exactly? Meteion was out of reach, and even if they got to Ultima Thule somehow, they'd likely have failed confronting her. The only way to prevent the Final Days would be to summon Zodiark early and get him to reinforce the aether field around the planet before the nihilism wave hits. Which would involve sacrificing however many lives were necessary to have the power to do that, which in turn would require her to convince people it was necessary in the first place. She was the only one who remembered our story and the true nature of our existence, so good luck with that. Not to mention openly disclosing everything could very possibly have made Hermes an enemy again and he could have jacked up preparations for Zodiark's summoning in response.

Venat did not "allow" the Final Days to occur. She didn't have that control. When they lost Meteion and the other two lost their memories, she could theoretically have made everything public knowledge and tried to convince people the end was nigh. But that might have borne no fruit at all, or even possibly made surviving the Final Days (of Amaurot) more difficult, so it would be a gamble. But either way, the Final Days were happening.

[Brinne]

Regarding the bolded bit, how does Venat "allow" the Final Days to happen? How could she have stopped them exactly? Meteion was out of reach, and even if they got Ultima Thule somehow, they'd likely have failed confronting her. The only way to prevent the Final Days would be summon Zodiark early and get him to reinforce the aether field around the planet before the nihilism wave hits. Which would involve sacrificing however many lives were necessary to have the power tp do that, which in turn would require her to convince people it was necessary in the first place. She was the only one who remembered our story and the true nature of our existence, so good luck with that. Not to mention openly disclosing everything could very possibly have made Hermes an enemy again and he could have jacked up preparations for Zodiark's summoning in response.

Venat is obviously not the instigator. But her reaction to the knowledge that they are coming amounts not to "we can't allow this to happen" or "we have to save as many people as possible," it becomes "bring it on." Again, look at her quote - she comes to the conclusion that mankind must prove itself equal to Hermes's test (the Final Days) and, she thinks, that the way to do this is prove they deserve to exist in showing how they confront absolute despair. This necessitates exposing them to, you know, absolute despair. Once again, her way of thinking is not practical, it is abstract and ideological. She is not prioritizing the saving of lives. She is prioritizing her hope that mankind as a whole will be able to philosophically confront Meteion and win the argument against her.

Whether she practically "could" have stopped them or not, how difficult or viable it may have been, becomes irrelevant. A lot of the confusion about Venat becomes "why didn't she at least try any number of obvious options?" It falls into place when you realize she wasn't interested in trying to begin with. Her efforts to prepare for the Final Days did not amount to trying to stop them or reducing harm, it was, to her hope, psychologically toughening people up to the fact of being harmed, and seeing if they would follow her view of correct path following the exposure to despair. They did not. This made her very sad. If nothing else, she bets WoL could be "strong" enough to handle it, though! And then the game happened.

Aren't he and the writing staff who decides the plot though?

In context, Yoshida was answering a point-blank question about "was there really no other way than Venat's?" and he answered, with some hesitation and elaboration that "...well, she thought so," before pointing out that Venat's stance in judging her fellow man was probably as flawed as Emet's and Hermes's. It's actually pretty telling, I think. Venat did truly and sincerely believe there was no other way - if you can say something for her, it's that she is a True Believer to the bone, ready to throw down and put herself (and others) on the line for her ideals. She is also, however, kind of a judgmental jerk who isn't omniscient or more qualified to make that call than anyone else.

[MikkoAkure]

In context, Yoshida was answering a point-blank question about "was there really no other way than Venat's?" and he answered, with some hesitation and elaboration that "...well, she thought so," before pointing out that Venat's stance in judging her fellow man was probably as flawed as Emet's and Hermes's. It's actually pretty telling, I think. Venat did truly and sincerely believe there was no other way - if you can say something for her, it's that she is a True Believer to the bone, ready to throw down and put herself (and others) on the line for her ideals. She is also, however, kind of a judgmental jerk who isn't omniscient or more qualified to make that call than anyone else.

That's not what I got from that. He already knew these questions and he wasn't being surprised on them. He even said while answering this one that he talked with Ishikawa on it.

But if you think that he hesitated and that there's a deeper meaning to how he answered it, then I'm probably not going to be able to convince you otherwise anyway. The way he worded it itself is weird, I'll give you that. But I don't think that he hesitated while answering it and that there's some deep secret going on and that the writers have it written down somewhere that the Ancients totally could have beaten Meteion by doing XYZ and they're keeping it from us for reasons.

I would have thought that the lore discussion sub-forum on the official Final Fantasy XIV site would be a suitable place to discuss the story in what is very much marketed as a narrative given game.

There's a difference between "lore discussion" and "the same people on each side on a crusade to stop the other from thinking their fav is problematic" and just as my example above, everyone is reading the same stuff and getting different ideas from it. I see the same posters saying the same things over and over, doubling-down on their convictions, and continuing to believe what they want to believe with an attitude that anyone who doesn't believe the same way that they believe doesn't have the same grasp of the lore that they do while the serpent eats its own tail and the cycle continues. I stopped coming to this thread because it stopped being fun a long time ago.

I never said you should stop, I don't control you, I just personally think it's a wasted effort and I can't wait until new content comes out that has nothing to do with this and this forum will move on.

[sidurgu-12]

snip

thank the twelve the live letter is almost here. though my personal fear is just growing.

[KizuyaKatogami]

That's not what I got from that. He already knew these questions and he wasn't being surprised on them. He even said while answering this one that he talked with Ishikawa on it.

But if you think that he hesitated and that there's a deeper meaning to how he answered it, then I'm probably not going to be able to convince you otherwise anyway. The way he worded it itself is weird, I'll give you that. But I don't think that he hesitated while answering it and that there's some deep secret going on and that the writers have it written down somewhere that the Ancients totally could have beaten Meteion by doing XYZ and they're keeping it from us for reasons.




There's a difference between "lore discussion" and "the same people on each side on a crusade to stop the other from thinking their fav is problematic" and just as my example above, everyone is reading the same stuff and getting different ideas from it. I see the same posters saying the same things over and over, doubling-down on their convictions, and continuing to believe what they want to believe with an attitude that anyone who doesn't believe the same way that they believe doesn't have the same grasp of the lore that they do while the serpent eats its own tail and the cycle continues. I stopped coming to this thread because it stopped being fun a long time ago.

I never said you should stop, I don't control you, I just personally think it's a wasted effort and I can't wait until new content comes out that has nothing to do with this and this forum will move on.

I think the fact that theres this much discourse just shows the writer's didnt do a good enough job answering questions. The QnA seems to further hammer in this point when yoshi p answered a pretty important lore question so nonchalantly and it wasnt shown whatsoever in the expansion itself. That being the unsundered escaping the sundering. Not to mention they seemed a bit surprised on people wondering what Azem was up to.The game has always had themes about defying fate and there being other ways to fix things or save the world, i dont see why it would be any different for the Ancients. I dont know if the forum will move on from this because this was a key example of the kind of writing,themes,and morality the writers seem to follow, and i think people who disagree with those will continue to show contempt for it. I will say though if you think its wasted effort why bother responding to it in the first place? Im not questioning or gatekeeping your right to comment of course, but i keep seeing these people comment why cant we just move on when... theyre in a thread about a specific topic. If they want to move on people are free to make their own thread about other things.

[MikkoAkure]

I think the fact that theres this much discourse just shows the writer's didnt do a good enough job answering questions.

I think that's one thing everyone can agree on.

I will say though if you think its wasted effort why bother responding to it in the first place? Im not questioning or gatekeeping your right to comment of course, but i keep seeing these people comment why cant we just move on when... theyre in a thread about a specific topic. If they want to move on people are free to make their own thread about other things.

I was lurking and saw a weird take I felt like commenting on without wanting to take part in the word vomit posts going on back and forth. And then I made an off-hand comment wondering why people are continuing to get super into it when I guess I should've known better. But I also guess a snide comment I made at the end of a post becoming a topic of discussion means that the greater conversation has turned stale for everyone else as well.

[Rulakir]

I can't wait until new content comes out that has nothing to do with this and this forum will move on.

Given that the next story is going to be a "conflict of values" I'm not sure lore discussions will change, they may become worse. I certainly don't have any confidence with the FFXIV team handling this theme after EW.

Regardless, this forum is usually kind of dead. It'd be mostly 'moving on' to inactivity until the next heated debate.

[Lauront]

Given that the next story is going to be a "conflict of values" I'm not sure lore discussions will change, they may become worse. I certainly don't have any confidence with the FFXIV team handling this theme after EW.

Regardless, this forum is usually kind of dead. It'd be mostly 'moving on' to inactivity until the next heated debate.

Same. I'm open to seeing what they have planned, but having already not been impressed by how EW was handled (Q&A sort of did a bit of damage control but there were aspects of it I found blasé/weakly thought out), and seeing what the future direction may be, I'm not particularly confident I will enjoy whatever they have coming, and depending on what that is, a(n) (indefinite) break may be due. A lot of the reason people are expressing their dissatisfaction with the story is in the hopes that the devs will take some notice. As Lurina has mentioned before, they actively encourage feedback and read through it, hence many of us posting. Although I will agree with Mikko that this has long since become cyclical and isn't really moving any ground... at this point, with the Q&A now dissected/digested, I'm taking the "agree to disagree" approach.