Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[EaraGrace]

The Ancients life isn't without suffering, it's just their suffering usually is on different level than the sundered. Suffering is constant in life is a fact, but her view of "to live is to suffer" is certainly an ideology, one that the writer believes in and tried to put into the story. Even by using the the Ra-La society as strawmen argument.

How is it an ideology if it’s a fact? Gravity isn’t an ideology. Death isn’t an ideology. If she said “suffering is amazing” that would be an ideology, and the only thing close to that idea was the line about “true happiness,” which is pretty lacking evidence of its existence if this is supposedly the ideology that led to her Sundering the world. It’s literally a, “don’t worry friends there’s good to be found of this” statement.

And how is it a strawman. Explain exactly what makes it a strawman.

Besides, I don't know why "restore our paradise" is "running away from reality", when they're still changed by the Final Days. Sill had experienced the Final Days. They have the means and methods to restore the lives of those sacrificed to Zodiark (even with arguably questionable method), unlike us in real life who can't do that. If you want to talk about "running away from reality" talk to the Ironworks of 8UC timeline who literally made a time travel machine to undo everything.

…because they were trying to undo every single change from the Final Days? They literally say “there must be a way to restore things to the way they were, to reclaim the perfect paradise we once had.”

The Ironworks group also explicitly say they don’t believe this will undo anything, only allow others to avoid suffering.

So we're not her people, got it. Just like how, since we're not the Garleans, we're not Varis's people despite being another human being. Both venat and emet called themselves "the last of my kind/the last of us" after all. The sundered are not venat's group of people. Period.

And yeah, she loveeee them so much she delete her own people because they're not up to her standard and ideal.... In another story, she would be depicted as narcissistic delusional villain.

Yeah, she totally, certainly thought of us as not “her people.”

When she talked about having faith in mankind’s potential, she must have meant a different arbitrary category of mankind, a definition that just happens to make that part of her speech a contradiction. That makes sense.

And Kozh if you’re going to be bad faith then why bother having this conversation. Or are you just trolling “Venat Stan’s?”

[Kozh]

How is it an ideology if it’s a fact?...

Brinne already fantastically explained what I thought as well about the whole "it's an ideologue". Besides, you also left the rest of the context, aren't you? Her view doesn't stop at "find joy in darkness", but also to "triumph over it", which as Brinne said, she view suffering as something to make someone stronger. Not only that how people see and deal with suffering is subjective, her ideologue also conveniently ignore needless suffering and could come across as elitist.

Speaking of facing suffering, if someone decided to avert their eyes from it and live in denial to keep them sane, what's our right to judge them?

And how is it a strawman. Explain exactly what makes it a strawman.

Because they only show us the end result and ask us to not think about it too much? The Dead Ends is pretty much moral messages condensed into 2-3 lines and crammed on a dungeon. Never mind the "how" and "what about". Not to mention that all the societies of those doomed worlds are just extreme caricature of all things we perceived as "bad". And I don't say this solely for defending the Ancients society, because if Yoshi-p said "yeah, the first/second world is definitely what the sundered world gonna be", then I would question it as well.

…because they were trying to undo every single change from the Final Days? They literally say “there must be a way to restore things to the way they were, to reclaim the perfect paradise we once had.”

So rebuilding their lives is a bad thing now? Sure, they might have get back those who had been sacrificed for Zodiark, but their experience and knowledge of Final Days will still be there. It's not like they want to literally turn back time to erase those event.

The Ironworks group also explicitly say they don’t believe this will undo anything, only allow others to avoid suffering.

And yet it is for the benefit of the Sundered, just like the third sacrifice benefit the Ancients. If ShB follow the same timeloop rule as EW, those action would be seen the same as what the Ancients did when they ask to "reclaim their paradise", but even worse because they 100% erase those suffering and hardship from reality. Nobody to remember it and to learn from it. They're lucky it created new timeline, otherwise I think Hydaelyn would be very dissapointed in their choice.

And Kozh if you’re going to be bad faith then why bother having this conversation. Or are you just trolling “Venat Stan’s?”

You overused that term so much I started to think you're the one having bad faith argument. Could ask the same to you tbh. If you're going to be bad faith and cherry picking what yoshi-p said, why bother having this conversation? Or are you just trolling "the Ancient's stans"?