Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[EaraGrace]

I don't see any reason why the sundering was needed to fight Meteion, I see no reason why the Ancients could not of fought Meteion, they could work with Dyanamis. So once the nature of the threat was made clear to them there seems to be no reason why they couldn't have done something about Meteion with time.

Venat, her faction, and the developers disagree.

She needs multiple rejoinings to happen so we can be sufficiently re-joined to kill the unsundered acians so most of the shards were nothing but fodder and the people on the source exposed to the full horror of multiple cataclysms by her actions. The rejoinings are part of her design

There’s a lot of different responses I could have to this, but I’ll just ask why, if this is true, she would fight against those “needed” Rejoinings?

She relied on said rejoinings though, that’s one of the major flaws in her plan. She required events to play out in such a specific manner. If not, who knows what would have happened. She needed Elidibus,Emet, etc to play their specific roles. Hell, had Elidibus not been on the First, her entire plan would be screwed as we needed him to even give us that time travel in the first place.

Which would go against both her statements and the act of saving Emet itself. If saving Emet and the other two are needed specifically to ensure the future plays out a certain, why would she do so on a complete gamble? And why not make contingencies for the other two? They just happened to be there.

I mean... unironically, factually, yes, to all of this? She did, in fact, know all of that when she deliberately left Emet an opening to escape?

So she simultaneously manipulated everyone to following the timeline, then did her utmost to upend it? She wasn’t required to try to stop the Flood of Light and yet she regrets not having the strength to do so all the same:



Then there’s granting her blessing to those resisting the Rejoinings, including back in 1.0. None of that works if we believe her to need the Rejoinings.



Can’t say she sounds thrilled at how things are turning out.

And then there’s her reaction at the Mothercrystal where she’s surprised when call her Venat. She clearly didn’t see it as set in stone.

[Brinne]

I feel like some of the back and forth, and citing of quotes and dialogue, becomes confused because Venat goes through a development arc in Elpis - her mindset when we meet her at the beginning is not the same as it is when she sends us away at the end, something she herself immediately recognizes when she initially can't understand her future self's actions as she exists now. As I understand it, this is an outline of how events shaped Venat's motives and decisions leading to where we are in the present:

- Venat exists as she did before our arrival in Elpis, a generally benevolent but oddly distant person who feels deeply but in terms of abstractions, “akin to a force of nature.” She has a vague dissatisfaction with the current world order, to the point that she feels she cannot return to the star as per tradition because she feels her people still need “help.” They are still in need of something from her, are lacking in something she feels she can’t leave alone until it is addressed.

- At some point in the past, she had some kind of personal epiphany that led her to viewing the world in a completely new and unique way, that made her feel intensely in tune with the world itself as a holistic entity and even sense a warm “presence without” associated with it. This was such a powerful experience to her, contrasting with what she implies was a prior viewpoint weighed down with preconceptions and prejudice, that she dedicated her life to a long, long journey.

- We arrive in Elpis. Venat discerns that we must from the future, and hears our story. It confuses her, particularly in relation to her own actions. It seems obvious to her that the natural course of action, given all of the destruction it wrought, would be to prevent the Final Days altogether, but this isn’t what her future self seems to have done. She concludes that therefore there must be something that changed between now and then, some huge reason she doesn’t understand yet for her to have done this 180.

- After Emet-Selch storms off, Venat travels alone with us. Venat bonds with us and comes to really like us a great deal, impressed with our strength and resilience and surpassing her hopes, considering the conditions we emerged from. She later, on the bridge, asks to hear more detailed stories about our life in hopes that it will help her better understand the still apparently incomprehensible actions of her future self. She is enamored with the stories of our world. They are incredible. She wishes she could be there. To hear that in spite of living in such hardship and calamity, mankind as a whole still endures, “gives her heart.”

- Along the way, Venat also notes that Emet-Selch is a good man who will work towards the greater good even if it means cooperating with someone he harshly disagreed with before. She files this information about him away.

- Everything with Hermes happens. Venat notes that while many people could hear Meteion’s report of despair and be more or less okay, Hermes probably wouldn’t, as he was already dissatisfied with his world and society and “seen the cracks in the veneer of perfection.” She says she understands his feelings in this sense, hence her refusal to return out of a sense of opposition to it as well. Again, her people “still need help.” Venat had a sense they were still not okay as she were, so she was not okay leaving them without her guidance.

- Venat hears Meteion’s report. The part about a society eliminating sorrow and suffering, leaving them as empty beings who could no longer appreciate joy and drove themselves to their own end, hits her extremely hard. She connects this with with her own dissatisfaction with Amaurotine society, and it likely clarifies that vague, uneasy feeling she’s been carrying for a long time.

- Meteion gets away, and Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus save Venat and us. Venat is emotionally and physically exhausted, and takes some time to process, mulling over what to do about everything that’s happened and everything we know now. After some internal back and forth, she comes to the conclusion that, especially if they’re facing down Meteion, the premise of Hermes’s test is valid. That, indeed, mankind must prove its worthiness to exist – and her opinion is that can only be accomplished by seeing how they respond in the face of absolute despair. (After all, a world filled with despair like the WoL’s is still so filled with beauty and has ended up creating a version of mankind full of strength and resilience. WoL has been through so much and shines so brilliantly.)

- In other words, Venat has gained the information she was confused about lacking before about her future self’s mindset. Namely, the picture we paint of the Sundered future, and Meteion's report. She decides to allow the Final Days to happen as a test of the Ancients, in the hopes that they will respond in what she views as the correct way, reflecting her view of using suffering to grow one’s internal strength and the ability to find “everlasting light.”

- The Final Days happen. The Ancients do not react in the way Venat wanted, prioritizing returning to their world of vastly reduced suffering over her ideology of using it to become stronger. She is deeply disappointed and sees this as them choosing a path of weakness. She reasons to herself, though, that her belief in mankind’s “potential” and “ability to find a way forward” means that they will learn to respond in the correct way if she forces them into an environment of suffering that leaves them no “temptation” and no choice. She also makes the decision to pursue the convergence of the WoL’s timeline with her own, chasing her “light of the future,” and therefore leaves the future Ascians out of the Sundering deliberately so they can go through with the Rejoinings WoL foretold. (Note that this is also consistent with the earlier part where Hythlodaeus proposes Hydaelyn guided WoL to Elpis in hopes of changing the future, which Venat shoots down because then the specifics don't make sense logically.)

- The Sundered timeline plays out as we know it does. The Seventh Umbral Calamity happens. As people die and despair over why it is happening, Hydaelyn sings about how this suffering will, in fact, be a very worthwhile and educational experience for them so they will “understand who they are and and what role they will play.”

- The game plays out. Venat invites us to definitely "prove our worth" through "a test of arms." When we defeat her, she is finally satisfied that mankind has achieved the "strength" she has always wished for them to and dies. Again, along the way, Venat also understands she chose to completely screw over Emet-Selch as a pawn in the course of her plans, and after her death leaves a contingency to give him a second chance at life as an apology for everything she’s put him through. He flips her off and moonwalks back into the Aetherial Sea with Hythlodaeus.

And here we are, waiting for the next patch! Laying things out like that, I think it is possible to have a pretty solid understanding of her line of thinking, for better or worse?

[EaraGrace]

At Pax 2015, Koji Fox said that Dragonsong was sung by Hydaelyn.


Revolutions is sung by the same singer in the same way as the other 2 so I wouldn't be surprised if that was also Hydaelyn.

I don't believe Tomorrow and Tomorrow is Hydaelyn, however.

Tomorrow and Tomorrow might be too far, but the reason I included it is due to Amanda Achens vocals in Endwalker might to signify Hydaelyn, with Sam Carter for Zodiark.

- In other words, Venat has gained the information she was confused about lacking before about her future self’s mindset. She decides to allow the Final Days to happen as a test of the Ancients, in the hopes that they will respond in what she views as the correct way, reflecting her view of using suffering to grow one’s internal strength and the ability to find “everlasting light.”

I had squabbles with the descriptions but this I strongly disagree with. Venat explains why she didn’t inform everyone in the cutscene before we leave, so to describe her as deciding to “let it happen” is a distortion, and ignores that she explicitly states she will be preparing defenses.

- The Final Days happen. The Ancients do not react in the way Venat wanted, prioritizing returning to their world of vastly reduced suffering over her ideology of using it to become stronger. She is deeply disappointed and sees this as them choosing a path of weakness. She reasons to herself, though, that her belief in mankind’s “potential” and “ability to find a way forward” means that they will learn to respond in the correct way if she forces them into an environment of suffering that leaves them no “temptation” and no choice. She also makes the decision to pursue the convergence of the WoL’s timeline with her own, chasing her “light of the future,” and therefore leaves the future Ascians out of the Sundering deliberately so they can go through with the Rejoinings WoL foretold.

Much of this is speculation. Despite what many would claim we don’t have definitive evidence she desires the Rejoinings, Yoshi P himself doesnt even believe that theory.

- The Sundered timeline plays out as we know it does. The Seventh Umbral Calamity happens. As people die and despair over why it is happening, Hydaelyn sings about how this suffering will, in fact, be a very worthwhile and educational experience for them so they will “understand who they are and and what role they will play.”

Ok I’m done. Never arguing this topic again on the forum. This is pointless, and no amount of pretending this is anything but dislike for dislikes sake will change things. You guys have fun.

[jameseoakes]

Venat, her faction, and the developers disagree.
.

Her faction don't appear to know anything about the truth of the end of days, so it looks a lot like they were tricked into giving there lives s Venat could be become a god and exterminate her own race, she is a complete and utter monster, the story fails to show any reason why Zodiark needed to be stopped. The only reason seems to spite on Venat's part of the ancients not living up to her self imposed standards.

[EaraGrace]

Her faction don't appear to know anything about the truth of the end of days, so it looks a lot like they were tricked into giving there lives s Venat could be become a god and exterminate her own race, she is a complete and utter monster, the story fails to show any reason why Zodiark needed to be stopped. The only reason seems to spite on Venat's part of the ancients not living up to her self imposed standards.

This contradicts both the statements we have from the recording in Anyder and Venats own words but hey I’m sure someone will just claim she’s a liar, despite Ancients being able to detect that.

[jameseoakes]

This contradicts both the statements we have from the recording in Anyder and Venats own words but hey I’m sure someone will just claim she’s a liar, despite Ancients being able to detect that.

I don' trust her words and that I can only remember that speech in Anyder being about Zodiark and the game hasn't offered any reasons why Zodiark was actually a bad thing and the Sundering seems to have little to do with him and seems to be purely to create her world(s) of endless suffering with Zodiark being split a bonus.

[Rulakir]

After some internal back and forth, she comes to the conclusion that, especially if they’re facing down Meteion, the premise of Hermes’s test is valid. That, indeed, mankind must prove its worthiness to exist – and her opinion is that can only be accomplished by seeing how they respond in the face of absolute despair. (After all, a world filled with despair like the WoL’s is still so filled with beauty and has ended up creating a version of mankind full of strength and resilience. WoL has been through so much and shines so brilliantly.)

The problem with this is the Final Days. The sundered world wasn't going to survive them either. They couldn't even handle the 8th Umbral Calamity which, as Veloran put it once, is a complete "bad end" for Venat with mankind again trying to restore the past over moving forward (and at the expense of all lives on the Source & shards since they didn't know the timeline would endure).

Hermes wasn't issuing a test, it was a condemnation. The sundered (nor seemingly any other life in the cosmos) couldn't resist the Song of Oblivion either, it wasn't something anyone was ever going to or arguably even meant to pass. It was specifically a sundering of Azem who had been groomed for the role and given every resource to ensure success against Meteion. Otherwise, everything dies.

[Brinne]

The problem with this is the Final Days. The sundered world wasn't going to survive them either. They couldn't even handle the 8th Umbral Calamity which, as Veloran put it once, is a complete "bad end" for Venat with mankind again trying to restore the past over moving forward (and at the expense of all lives on the Source & shards since they didn't know the timeline would endure).

Hermes wasn't issuing a test, it was a condemnation. The sundered (nor seemingly any other life in the cosmos) couldn't resist the Song of Oblivion either, it wasn't something anyone was ever going to or arguably even meant to pass. It was specifically a sundering of Azem who had been groomed for the role and given every resource to ensure success against Meteion. Otherwise, everything dies.

Oh, I don't disagree at all. If we want to get into my personal opinions, my belief is that Hermes's test was absolutely not valid and the premise of saying that a person or population must "prove their worthiness" to exist is deeply unsettling and wrong from the get-go, let alone the fixation on the framework of "strength and weakness" in the context of coping with suffering and trauma. This was just me trying to lay out my understanding of Venat's way of thinking and the events fueling them.

[Cleretic]

I don' trust her words and that I can only remember that speech in Anyder being about Zodiark and the game hasn't offered any reasons why Zodiark was actually a bad thing and the Sundering seems to have little to do with him and seems to be purely to create her world(s) of endless suffering with Zodiark being split a bonus.

Zodiark wasn't a bad thing inherently--in fact, it was fundamentally necessary, because without him setting up the aetheric shield, the Ancient world would've gotten ripped to shreds by the End of Days. The problem was that the Ancients were turning to it as the solution to all of their problems; an approach that is unsustainable, because Zodiark requires mass sacrifices to function and perform great acts, and there's only so much life to sacrifice. Venat and company's view is that the Ancients would never stop doing this, and they were going down the road to eventually become the same as the Plenty we see in the Dead Ends; sacrificing so much of the planet that what little is left has nothing to find joy in anymore. This was directly stated to be her view by the developers, right down to the Plenty citation.

The Sundering was ultimately a two-purpose plan: stop the Ancients from sacrificing to Zodiark, and create beings that have anything resembling a chance against Meteion and the End of Days when the problem does arise again, since the Ancients were completely incapable of going up against it. Plans, after all, can have two purposes.

You can argue that the Ancients maybe weren't going to go for infinite sacrifices (although I'll warn that your feeling that they wouldn't is as gut-feel as her feeling that they would), and you can argue that they perhaps didn't have to fight Meteion because Zodiark had created a stalemate situation. But it's not possible to argue that the Ancients would have been able to handle the End of Days if you gave them the chance, because the nature of the End of Days basically hard counters their whole thing. Not even Emet and Hythlodaeus in Ultima Thule could've done anything at all without eight sundered souls (and some help from Venat) to get them in position to do the one thing they had in them--and that one thing did very little, too.

[Lauront]

The hill that my corpse will fester on is that the ascians were well within their rights to correct what they saw as a huge mistake born of Hydaelyn's fear of Zodiark's power, and to defy fate as has been the way in many FF games. They and Ardbert & co were the 'dark mirrors' and the actual Warriors of Darkness to the WoL/Scions, who were also within their rights to fight back and defy fate.　Not to mention that those calamities could be thought of as 'toughening up' people as She wanted... I think this has been said a trillion times by others though.

This, 1000x times over. At the end of the day, she knew more or less what they'd get up to if not given the full picture, and yes, I certainly agree they were within their rights to try reverse what she did to them.

*snip*

Pretty stellar breakdown, IMO.

I'd also note how her own mere walking past the ancients dying contrasted to G'raha's "not a single one" line (paraphrasing) and in general the Scions' desire to minimise casualties and suffering - not exactly stances which they're re-considering in light of what they learnt. I thought this take on it by Vyrerus was on the mark on how narrowly this "test" was "passed" in truth.

Her faction don't appear to know anything about the truth of the end of days, so it looks a lot like they were tricked into giving there lives s Venat could be become a god and exterminate her own race, she is a complete and utter monster, the story fails to show any reason why Zodiark needed to be stopped. The only reason seems to spite on Venat's part of the ancients not living up to her self imposed standards.

I would agree. The dialogue here does not suggest they understood the implications of what would happen to them. They speak after all about missing her, comparing the situation to that with Elidibus. They also speak of the doom they mean to forestall in vague terms - to me, this sounds like they're discussing the implications of the report about the Plenty. I don't think they fully understood what she was going to do and that their souls would be consumed wholesale in the process. I'd hazard the guess that the action they intended to take was to bind Zodiark to prevent him from enabling the restoration of the star to its prior state (i.e. halt the return of the ancients in Zodiark) - as to sundering the ancients? No clear indication they knew of that, in my view. We simply know that she and her summoners were driven by the belief that their people shouldn't dwell in the past, from the Watcher, when he explains why she lied about the past, but only in the sense that that determined her purpose - not that they knew in detail of what would transpire.





French version for comparison:

[17:06] Amaurotain serein (Serene Amaurotine) : Compagnons, merci de vous être rassemblés à l'Anydre malgré les circonstances.
= “Companions, thank you for assembling at the Anyder despite the circumstances.”

[17:06] Amaurotain serein : L'invocation de Zordiarche a bien eu pour effet d'apaiser le fléau. Et d'aucuns voient le nouvel ordre qu'il a fait naître d'une robustesse sans faille.
= “The summoning of Zodiark had the effect of calming the (calamity). And some see that the new order that it has given birth to flawless robustness.”

[17:06] Amaurotain inquiet (Concerned Amaurotine) : Malheureusement, nous courons plus que jamais à notre perte. Cet artifice n'a fait que retarder l'inéluctable.
= “Unfortunately, we are more than ever at a loss. This artifice has only delayed the inevitable.”

[17:06] Amaurotain inquiet : J'ai bien tenté d'en faire part au Concile des Quatorze, mais mon avis n'a pas été pris en compte.
= “I tried to convey this to the Council of fourteen, but my opinion was not taken into account.”

[17:06] Amaurotain inquiet : Quant au membre qui a laissé son siège vacant, j'ignore si son intention est de rester neutre jusqu'au bout. En tout cas, nos sollicitations sont toujours vaines.
= “As for the member who left his seat vacant, I do not know whether his intention is to remain neutral until the end. In any case, our solicitations are always in vain.”

[17:06] Amaurotain inquiet : Vénérable Venat, pourriez-vous nous faire part de votre opinion à ce sujet ?
= “Venerable Venat, could you share your thoughts on this?”

[17:06] Venat : Il est inutile de faire des reproches aux membres du Concile. Tout comme nous, ils ne désirent rien d'autre qu'un avenir prospère pour notre monde.
= “It is futile to make attempts to approach the members of the Council. Like us, they want nothing but a prosperous future for our world.”

[17:07] Venat : Demandez-vous plutôt si vous êtes prêts à suivre la route que nous avons choisie, quitte à devoir leur faire face, ainsi qu'à nombre de nos compatriotes…
= “Instead, ask yourself whether you are ready to follow the path we have chosen, even if
it means you have to face them, as well as many of our fellow compatriots…”

[17:07] Venat : Si c'est le cas, suivez-moi et créons ensemble un frein à ce futur.
= “If that's the case, then follow me and let's create a brake on this future together.”

[17:07] Venat : Pour opposer la Lumière aux Ténèbres de Zordiarche, nous donnerons naissance à... Hydaelyn.
= “To oppose the Light to the Shadows of Zodiark, we will give birth to… Hydaelyn.”


Part Two:

[17:10] Amaurotain serein : Vénérable Venat... N'y a-t-il vraiment aucun autre moyen d'invoquer Hydaelyn ?
= “Venerable Venat… Is there really no other way to summon Hydaelyn?”

[17:10] Amaurotain serein : Nous avons encore tant besoin de vous, que vous nous montriez la voie…
= “We still really need you, that you show us the way…”

[17:10] Venat : Vous savez bien que notre projet est loin de bénéficier d'autant de sympathisants qu'a pu en compter la création de Zordiarche…
= “You know full well that our project is far from benefiting from as many sympathizers as the creation of Zordiark could count…”

[17:10] Venat : Je suis la seule à pouvoir devenir le noyau d'Hydaelyn, afin de contenir la puissance de l'autre divinité.
= “I am the only one who can become the core of Hydaelyn, in order to contain the power of the other Divinity.”

[17:10] Venat : Ne vous en faites pas, je ne disparaîtrai pas pour autant. Je pourrai toujours décider quelle forme donner à mon existence.
= “Don't worry, it doesn’t necessarily mean I will disappear. I can always decide what shape to give my existence.”

[17:10] Amaurotain serein : De toute évidence, je ne vous ferai pas changer d'avis. Vous nous manquerez terriblement, sachez-le.
= “Obviously, I won't change your mind. We'll miss you terribly, you should know that.”

[17:11] Amaurotain serein : Je me demande si les membres du Concile des Quatorze ont ressenti la même chose, lorsqu'Elidibus a fait don de son être pour créer Zordiarche…
= “I wonder if the members of the Council of Fourteen felt the same when Elidibus gave (an offering of) his being to create Zordiark…”