"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

[Jijifli]

So is pulling when you don't have the ability to handle these enemies and your tank might not be ready for it, resulting in a wipe and effectively griefing the other players in your party.
Perspectives.

This thread is still going lol. But sure, why not go in circles, may as well.

I just wanna casually remind everyone pulling as a DPS is quite literally a ToS violation example under Aiding The Enemy. It overburdens the healers when the appropriate person pulling should be the tank.

Defending DPS pulling is literally going against the ToS, and Yoshida. So many people praise his words like he's a god until they suddenly don't align with their desire.

For the sake of it, I will now quote every example under Aiding the Enemy.

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For example, the following types of situations fall under the act of giving an advantage to the enemy (or the opposing team/players in PvP content):

"I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group."
"I don't think we can clear this anyway, so I'll just get hit by the enemy attack and go AFK after I'm knocked out."
"I'm going to join the opposing team as a healer and do nothing so my friends on the other team can win the PvP content."
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So, now that we have the examples, and you're free to fact check them, let's consider a common trend in here.
"I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group." This is refusing to participate at all. Would you argue that, at minimum, the DPS is at least participating in the situation, while at the same time, would you not argue that the tank sitting down isn't participating? We can even quote about conditions of failure if a wipe happens "Each player has a different level of skill, and in some cases, there may be a situation where the duty/content will fail. From the perspective of a skilled player in such a situation, a less skilled player may appear to be "adversarial/uncooperative/apathetic," but even if this is the case, it is not a violation as long as the player is playing appropriately."

"I don't think we can clear this anyway, so I'll just get hit by the enemy attack and go AFK after I'm knocked out." So, if the argument is you think that pull will cause a wipe, so you sit and confirm it into a wipe, is this not the written example?

"I'm going to join the opposing team as a healer and do nothing so my friends on the other team can win the PvP content." This one has trouble applying at all, given it's a pvp example, but still an example, and I can't seem to join the enemy AI's side.

This, is the problem though. You'll notice a very specific trend under Aiding The Enemy examples, even the PvP one. Refusal to participate. Even if you hate, absolutely hate that dps somehow running ahead of a job with multiple gap closing abilities (which, oddly, never happens to me, but let's ignore that), they are at the very least still doing something. You might disagree, and you might not be up to the specified task at hand, but he is at least participating and trying. When the tank or healer sits down afterword, throws a huge hissy fit about how they wanna tank (which, nobody has stopped their ability to tank, except themself), and refuses to play at all, that is literally 2 of the 3 examples written down.

And, if you dislike it enough, vote kick them. Difference in playstyle is still a legit kick reasoning, even if not personally listed. But at least try to pick the stuff up when it happens, because at least then, you can say you participated, rather than punish everyone else because you disliked one guy.

[Sigiria]

This, is the problem though. You'll notice a very specific trend under Aiding The Enemy examples, even the PvP one. Refusal to participate. Even if you hate, absolutely hate that dps somehow running ahead of a job with multiple gap closing abilities (which, oddly, never happens to me, but let's ignore that), they are at the very least still doing something. You might disagree, and you might not be up to the specified task at hand, but he is at least participating and trying. When the tank or healer sits down afterword, throws a huge hissy fit about how they wanna tank (which, nobody has stopped their ability to tank, except themself), and refuses to play at all, that is literally 2 of the 3 examples written down.

But the tank is not refusing to play if they're actively pulling and tanking what they believe they can handle neither did they create a situation in which a player would get killed. The person that pulled more did.
And this "throws a huge hissy fit about how they wanna tank (which, nobody has stopped their ability to tank, except themself)" can very much be this as well "throws a huge hissy fit about how they wanna dps (which, nobody has stopped their ability to dps on the current pack or made them pull more, except themself)"

[Jijifli]

But the tank is not refusing to play if they're actively pulling and tanking what they believe they can handle neither did they create a situation in which a player would get killed. The person that pulled more did.
And this "throws a huge hissy fit about how they wanna tank (which, nobody has stopped their ability to tank, except themself)" can very much be this as well "throws a huge hissy fit about how they wanna dps (which, nobody has stopped their ability to dps on the current pack or made them pull more, except themself)"

Okay, so I just really really wanna make sure I'm understanding correct what you're trying to say.

If I, as a tank, decided during a fight to put my weapon away, and stand there, doing absolutely nothing at all, you say that's not refusing to play? Can I ask what he is doing?

And on that, your swing of "how they wanna dps" is strange to use, considering the one in question is still, in fact, doing dps. He has not stopped. So, can you clarify what you mean? Because it sounds like you're saying actively pressing button = not playing, and actively doing nothing = playing. Which, I know Limsa sounds nice, but... We're not in limsa.

[Sigiria]

Okay, so I just really really wanna make sure I'm understanding correct what you're trying to say.

If I, as a tank, decided during a fight to put my weapon away, and stand there, doing absolutely nothing at all, you say that's not refusing to play? Can I ask what he is doing?

And on that, your swing of "how they wanna dps" is strange to use, considering the one in question is still, in fact, doing dps. He has not stopped. So, can you clarify what you mean? Because it sounds like you're saying actively pressing button = not playing, and actively doing nothing = playing. Which, I know Limsa sounds nice, but... We're not in limsa.

From most case I've seen, when a tank go with the "you pull you tank" they don't put their weapon away, they just stop doing aoe to take the extra mobs off the person that pulled. But you also seem to be missing my point. Both are as equally stupid.
Yes putting your weapon away and doing nothing because you decide you don't want to tank anymore is against the ToS. So is going out of your way to make a bigger pull without everyone being ok with it, that fall under the nuisance behavior.
And since you like quoting the ToS:
■Nuisance behavior
・Expressions that compel a playing style
It is prohibited to make statements such as:
"There's no way we can clear this with [suggestion]."
"Big pulls are normal here, so do it!"
"I don't care what you think, just follow my instructions."
"I'm not asking for your opinion."

So yeah, one player taking upon themself to pull more for someone else is just as much against ToS