"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

[Violyre]

My personal thought is that I know what I can handle as both healer and tank, but depending which one I am, I don't know how the other person feels about it. When I tank, I ask specifically the healer how they feel about big pulls.

DPS feelings don't matter.

That being said, as long as you run them to me and not run around like a lala BLM who casted fire on their own ass as they sprint, I'll pick them up. Don't run circles around me. Don't run them to the far end of the hall. Don't make me chase you to get them. Just come stand next to me and I'll get them right away with an AoE!

ALSO ALSO, don't ever run ahead of me to pull when I have no aggro. That causes me to have feelings that would get me banned from most websites if I described them. I'm already headed to pick them up and they're in a nice position that I can usually just AoE them and keep going to get the next one. I don't normally sprint because I forget to, but if you want me to go faster TELL ME.

[Ath192]

Lmao I'm pretty sure most DPS pull with the intention of doing more damage and getting a move on unlike YPYT where your small soyboy energy is just intentionally letting people die because you can't handle not being the leader for 5 minutes

Sorry but starting anything with "I'm pretty sure" is nothing but bias here. Just like "I'm pretty sure" that some DPS are completely selfish rude people that will pull ahead because they want to get out asap and bully the tank into scrambling to grab aggro. And if he dares to fail they'll shame him nonstop. Those aren't good people sorry to burst the bubble.

[Jijifli]

So is pulling when you don't have the ability to handle these enemies and your tank might not be ready for it, resulting in a wipe and effectively griefing the other players in your party.
Perspectives.

This thread is still going lol. But sure, why not go in circles, may as well.

I just wanna casually remind everyone pulling as a DPS is quite literally a ToS violation example under Aiding The Enemy. It overburdens the healers when the appropriate person pulling should be the tank.

Defending DPS pulling is literally going against the ToS, and Yoshida. So many people praise his words like he's a god until they suddenly don't align with their desire.

For the sake of it, I will now quote every example under Aiding the Enemy.

-
For example, the following types of situations fall under the act of giving an advantage to the enemy (or the opposing team/players in PvP content):

"I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group."
"I don't think we can clear this anyway, so I'll just get hit by the enemy attack and go AFK after I'm knocked out."
"I'm going to join the opposing team as a healer and do nothing so my friends on the other team can win the PvP content."
-

So, now that we have the examples, and you're free to fact check them, let's consider a common trend in here.
"I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group." This is refusing to participate at all. Would you argue that, at minimum, the DPS is at least participating in the situation, while at the same time, would you not argue that the tank sitting down isn't participating? We can even quote about conditions of failure if a wipe happens "Each player has a different level of skill, and in some cases, there may be a situation where the duty/content will fail. From the perspective of a skilled player in such a situation, a less skilled player may appear to be "adversarial/uncooperative/apathetic," but even if this is the case, it is not a violation as long as the player is playing appropriately."

"I don't think we can clear this anyway, so I'll just get hit by the enemy attack and go AFK after I'm knocked out." So, if the argument is you think that pull will cause a wipe, so you sit and confirm it into a wipe, is this not the written example?

"I'm going to join the opposing team as a healer and do nothing so my friends on the other team can win the PvP content." This one has trouble applying at all, given it's a pvp example, but still an example, and I can't seem to join the enemy AI's side.

This, is the problem though. You'll notice a very specific trend under Aiding The Enemy examples, even the PvP one. Refusal to participate. Even if you hate, absolutely hate that dps somehow running ahead of a job with multiple gap closing abilities (which, oddly, never happens to me, but let's ignore that), they are at the very least still doing something. You might disagree, and you might not be up to the specified task at hand, but he is at least participating and trying. When the tank or healer sits down afterword, throws a huge hissy fit about how they wanna tank (which, nobody has stopped their ability to tank, except themself), and refuses to play at all, that is literally 2 of the 3 examples written down.

And, if you dislike it enough, vote kick them. Difference in playstyle is still a legit kick reasoning, even if not personally listed. But at least try to pick the stuff up when it happens, because at least then, you can say you participated, rather than punish everyone else because you disliked one guy.

[Padudu]

Sorry but starting anything with "I'm pretty sure" is nothing but bias here. Just like "I'm pretty sure" that some DPS are completely selfish rude people that will pull ahead because they want to get out asap and bully the tank into scrambling to grab aggro. And if he dares to fail they'll shame him nonstop. Those aren't good people sorry to burst the bubble.

LMAO implying you're speaking objectively at all

Dude I don't main DPS I just use common sense and my own experience with most dpses that pull ahead of me. I've never felt like bullied by a DPS to go forward lmfao and hey in general most people are actually alright when you don't antagonize them the moment you que with them into a dungeon tbh fam

[Sigiria]

This, is the problem though. You'll notice a very specific trend under Aiding The Enemy examples, even the PvP one. Refusal to participate. Even if you hate, absolutely hate that dps somehow running ahead of a job with multiple gap closing abilities (which, oddly, never happens to me, but let's ignore that), they are at the very least still doing something. You might disagree, and you might not be up to the specified task at hand, but he is at least participating and trying. When the tank or healer sits down afterword, throws a huge hissy fit about how they wanna tank (which, nobody has stopped their ability to tank, except themself), and refuses to play at all, that is literally 2 of the 3 examples written down.

But the tank is not refusing to play if they're actively pulling and tanking what they believe they can handle neither did they create a situation in which a player would get killed. The person that pulled more did.
And this "throws a huge hissy fit about how they wanna tank (which, nobody has stopped their ability to tank, except themself)" can very much be this as well "throws a huge hissy fit about how they wanna dps (which, nobody has stopped their ability to dps on the current pack or made them pull more, except themself)"

[Jijifli]

But the tank is not refusing to play if they're actively pulling and tanking what they believe they can handle neither did they create a situation in which a player would get killed. The person that pulled more did.
And this "throws a huge hissy fit about how they wanna tank (which, nobody has stopped their ability to tank, except themself)" can very much be this as well "throws a huge hissy fit about how they wanna dps (which, nobody has stopped their ability to dps on the current pack or made them pull more, except themself)"

Okay, so I just really really wanna make sure I'm understanding correct what you're trying to say.

If I, as a tank, decided during a fight to put my weapon away, and stand there, doing absolutely nothing at all, you say that's not refusing to play? Can I ask what he is doing?

And on that, your swing of "how they wanna dps" is strange to use, considering the one in question is still, in fact, doing dps. He has not stopped. So, can you clarify what you mean? Because it sounds like you're saying actively pressing button = not playing, and actively doing nothing = playing. Which, I know Limsa sounds nice, but... We're not in limsa.

[Ath192]

LMAO implying you're speaking objectively at all

Dude I don't main DPS I just use common sense and my own experience with most dpses that pull ahead of me. I've never felt like bullied by a DPS to go forward lmfao and hey in general most people are actually alright when you don't antagonize them the moment you que with them into a dungeon tbh fam

I'm not, nor did I ever claim I was, there's a reason I quoted specific phrases in my response, but I see you had trouble understanding them.

Personally I've seen both. A benign pull ahead and a this is gonna be the way it is pull ahead, with shaming following afterwards.

Now here is a compelling a playstyle citation from the TOS:

It is prohibited to force personal views or disregard the opinions of others. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

It is prohibited to make statements such as:
"There's no way we can clear this with [suggestion]."
"Big pulls are normal here, so do it!"
"I don't care what you think, just follow my instructions."
"I'm not asking for your opinion."

Please note that Square Enix may issue a penalty in its discretion even if a report has not been filed but the act was found being conducted in public areas such as Say and Shout, search comments, Party Finder, and online video or streaming services.

************

Getting that out of the way, if we use logic and common sense:
1. The Tank has both a ranged attack and an AOE attack that can be paired with their enmity generation skill
2. The Tank has the best defense and cool downs to deal with mobs
3. The DPS have poor tools equipped to deal with the monsters they pull

So in any given situation the person that commits the first offense will always be the DPS, since they are doing something out of the ordinary, pulling for the tank.

The tank can react in two ways:
1. Be offended about it and put up an attitude
2. Be the bigger person and chug along

Now, noone likes a tank with a bad attitude, this is true. However, the actual culprit, or instigator of the situation is the DPS. So they are not off the hook for causing a situation that didn't need to happen to begin with. It is not acceptable behavior and at best people dont care because they are chill.

But I certainly haven't met any tank or group for that matter in my life that goes in to the dungeon "hoping" the DPS pulls for them. The best case scenario is noone cares.

[Sigiria]

Okay, so I just really really wanna make sure I'm understanding correct what you're trying to say.

If I, as a tank, decided during a fight to put my weapon away, and stand there, doing absolutely nothing at all, you say that's not refusing to play? Can I ask what he is doing?

And on that, your swing of "how they wanna dps" is strange to use, considering the one in question is still, in fact, doing dps. He has not stopped. So, can you clarify what you mean? Because it sounds like you're saying actively pressing button = not playing, and actively doing nothing = playing. Which, I know Limsa sounds nice, but... We're not in limsa.

From most case I've seen, when a tank go with the "you pull you tank" they don't put their weapon away, they just stop doing aoe to take the extra mobs off the person that pulled. But you also seem to be missing my point. Both are as equally stupid.
Yes putting your weapon away and doing nothing because you decide you don't want to tank anymore is against the ToS. So is going out of your way to make a bigger pull without everyone being ok with it, that fall under the nuisance behavior.
And since you like quoting the ToS:
■Nuisance behavior
・Expressions that compel a playing style
It is prohibited to make statements such as:
"There's no way we can clear this with [suggestion]."
"Big pulls are normal here, so do it!"
"I don't care what you think, just follow my instructions."
"I'm not asking for your opinion."

So yeah, one player taking upon themself to pull more for someone else is just as much against ToS

[ForteNightshade]

My personal thought is that I know what I can handle as both healer and tank, but depending which one I am, I don't know how the other person feels about it. When I tank, I ask specifically the healer how they feel about big pulls.

DPS feelings don't matter.

That being said, as long as you run them to me and not run around like a lala BLM who casted fire on their own ass as they sprint, I'll pick them up. Don't run circles around me. Don't run them to the far end of the hall. Don't make me chase you to get them. Just come stand next to me and I'll get them right away with an AoE!

ALSO ALSO, don't ever run ahead of me to pull when I have no aggro. That causes me to have feelings that would get me banned from most websites if I described them. I'm already headed to pick them up and they're in a nice position that I can usually just AoE them and keep going to get the next one. I don't normally sprint because I forget to, but if you want me to go faster TELL ME.

You say this yet expect DPS to care about your feelings. Why should they when you just expressed you don't give a damn about theirs? Has it occurred to you that DPS run ahead to keep the skills active? Wasting their big hitters on a three pack because you forgot to hit sprint means less overall damage when you do finally grab the rest of the mobs. And let's speak about that. You'll criticise the DPS—to the point of "having feelings that will get you banned"—yet you can't remember to hit sprint? They have to remind you to go faster? Seriously?

If the DPS' feelings don't matter then neither do yours.

■Nuisance behavior
・Expressions that compel a playing style
It is prohibited to make statements such as:
"There's no way we can clear this with [suggestion]."
"Big pulls are normal here, so do it!"
"I don't care what you think, just follow my instructions."
"I'm not asking for your opinion."

So yeah, one player taking upon themself to pull more for someone else is just as much against ToS

I could just as easily spin that into "I'm the tank. I decide the pull sizes not you!" Which also falls under "compelling a playstyle." In fact, you could change the wording several different ways and each could be technically classified as "Nuisance behavior". Even the "I don't care what you think, just follow my instructions" applies as that's the tank demanding you play to their preference.

Put simply, this is why you can't quote the ToS verbatim. It's intentionally worded to be incredibly vague so that GMs can freely interpret to their fancy. Hence why "Difference of Playstyle" is a perfectly valid reason to kick someone despite so many people believing there's such a thing as Vote Kick abuse. All you need to know is in virtually every scenario, GMs will always ere on the side of benefit of doubt unless it's blatantly obvious. A DPS running ahead without saying a word isn't going to get them into trouble nor is a tank who doesn't pick up aggro fast enough intentional or otherwise. If one of them comments however, and said replies are hostile, then there's potential they get into trouble.

[Sigiria]

put simply, this is why you can't quote the ToS verbatim. It's intentionally worded to be incredibly vague so that GMs can freely interpret to their fancy.

Which was exactly my point.