Summoner rework is a huge dissapointment

[Bacillus]

Sorry but, what heal?

Phoenix heals is almost always cast as a part of our rotation and never used when needed, i will not delay summon phoenix for certain mechanic at the cost of dps loss.

What i see is that there are a lot of utilities that are stuck behind bad mechanics:

- Everlasting flight requires phoenix.
- Rekindle requires Phoenix.
- Radiant Aegis depends on Carbuncle.
- Searing Light depends on Carbuncle.

Why these skills should have these requeriments? i can easily replace physick for rekindle, adding a cd to it and problem is solved.
its the same for Everlasting flight, it can be a healing cd to be casted when needed and changes into a Bahamuth version which gives a barrier.
Same with Carbuncle, i would just get rid of it and cast the skills myself.

These kind of skills must not depend on a rotation.

[tearagion]

Sorry but, what heal?

Phoenix heals is almost always cast as a part of our rotation and never used when needed, i will not delay summon phoenix for certain mechanic at the cost of dps loss.

What i see is that there are a lot of utilities that are stuck behind bad mechanics:

- Everlasting flight requires phoenix.
- Rekindle requires Phoenix.
- Radiant Aegis depends on Carbuncle.
- Searing Light depends on Carbuncle.

Why these skills should have these requeriments? i can easily replace physick for rekindle, adding a cd to it and problem is solved.
its the same for Everlasting flight, it can be a healing cd to be casted when needed and changes into a Bahamuth version which gives a barrier.
Same with Carbuncle, i would just get rid of it and cast the skills myself.

These kind of skills must not depend on a rotation.

I think I agree with you? Specific abilities relying on specific summons is cool, it's a mainstay of summoning even beyond Final Fantasy. The problem is how brutally inflexible the rotation is in regards to these abilities, and how DPS works in FFXIV. These factors combined make Phoenix heals, while strong, not even worthy of an after thought because there are only 15s in 2 mins where either can happen. It's a design failure in implementation, not in ideation.

[Tulzscha]

Sorry but, what heal?

Phoenix heals is almost always cast as a part of our rotation and never used when needed, i will not delay summon phoenix for certain mechanic at the cost of dps loss.

What i see is that there are a lot of utilities that are stuck behind bad mechanics:

- Everlasting flight requires phoenix.
- Rekindle requires Phoenix.
- Radiant Aegis depends on Carbuncle.
- Searing Light depends on Carbuncle.

Why these skills should have these requeriments? i can easily replace physick for rekindle, adding a cd to it and problem is solved.
its the same for Everlasting flight, it can be a healing cd to be casted when needed and changes into a Bahamuth version which gives a barrier.
Same with Carbuncle, i would just get rid of it and cast the skills myself.

These kind of skills must not depend on a rotation.

Slipstream requires Garuda, Crimson Cyclone requires Ifrit, damn I guess those abilities don't exist either, why are there even summons? All they do is restrict abilities. Oh yeah, the job's called Summoner.

Imo they need to give SMN way more freedom for when to use summons. Separate all of them, have a different requirement for the little guys like Energy Drain instead of Bahamut, give the big summons - at least ones with utility like Phoenix - a more flexible cost (a cd with charges would work fine), sprinkle in some more options and bam the job's 50% better at least.

Having unique abilities attached to unique summons is what the job's all about but if there's no actual choice in what can be summoned when there isn't much point. Phoenix's heal is there and healers can work around it so it doesn't go to waste but it doesn't feel good or rewarding for the person playing the Summoner because there's no choice.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

Slipstream requires Garuda, Crimson Cyclone requires Ifrit, damn I guess those abilities don't exist either, why are there even summons? All they do is restrict abilities. Oh yeah, the job's called Summoner.

Imo they need to give SMN way more freedom for when to use summons. Separate all of them, have a different requirement for the little guys like Energy Drain instead of Bahamut, give the big summons - at least ones with utility like Phoenix - a more flexible cost (a cd with charges would work fine), sprinkle in some more options and bam the job's 50% better at least.

Having unique abilities attached to unique summons is what the job's all about but if there's no actual choice in what can be summoned when there isn't much point. Phoenix's heal is there and healers can work around it so it doesn't go to waste but it doesn't feel good or rewarding for the person playing the Summoner because there's no choice.

Love the fact you listed damage-dealing abilities XD Those are fine being locked behind summons since most of the other jobs have that also. Do you know what isn't locked behind a phase on other jobs? Utilities! Utilities should never be dependent on part of your rotations or be locked behind a phase in your job. They should be able to be freely used when the time calls for them. That is why no matter what you say, things like M. Barrier, A. Cest, and other utilities always be stronger and better choices because those jobs have the freedom to use them when the time calls for them. Just because you think everlasting flight and rekindle are good doesn't make them good, they are flawed utilities. Some people may like them because it requires no thinking on their part on using them since they are hard-baked into the rotation, personally, I rather think and talk to my healers on when they need the help instead of just letting the game use the abilities automatically with no input from me.

[Tulzscha]

Love the fact you listed damage-dealing abilities XD Those are fine being locked behind summons since most of the other jobs have that also. Do you know what isn't locked behind a phase on other jobs? Utilities! Utilities should never be dependent on part of your rotations or be locked behind a phase in your job. They should be able to be freely used when the time calls for them. That is why no matter what you say, things like M. Barrier, A. Cest, and other utilities always be stronger and better choices because those jobs have the freedom to use them when the time calls for them. Just because you think everlasting flight and rekindle are good doesn't make them good, they are flawed utilities. Some people may like them because it requires no thinking on their part on using them since they are hard-baked into the rotation, personally, I rather think and talk to my healers on when they need the help instead of just letting the game use the abilities automatically with no input from me.

Heh. They're what would normally be niche or situational abilities but due to SMN's design they simply get spammed along with everything else. I don't think that's a good thing nor do I think the uncontrollable nature of Everlasting Flight is good design but I also think it's silly for people to call it useless because it's uncontrollable.

[Sequora]

Just have rekindle be a separate button and have phoenix give you “rekindle ready” easy.

[Bacillus]

Heh. They're what would normally be niche or situational abilities but due to SMN's design they simply get spammed along with everything else. I don't think that's a good thing nor do I think the uncontrollable nature of Everlasting Flight is good design but I also think it's silly for people to call it useless because it's uncontrollable.

I thank first to MrJPtheAssassin to have answered your post, as i said if im not clear enough because it seems that you ignored that part in mi post, i quote myself.

These kind of skills must not depend on a rotation.

And what im refering to this is to utility skills, which again i mentioned: Everlasting flight, Radiant Aegis, Searing Light and Rekindle.

Did i mentioned Slipstream, Crimson Cyclone, etc...?

Now with your own words, you say the job is called Summoner, so by your standpoint, should we restrict Resurrection into phoenix phase because Phoenix flavor is about rebirth and healing?

And now, if the utility is uncontrolable then is no utility at all, there should be no debate about this, if im going to get damage because a boss mechanic, but carbuncle isnt there because i have bahamuth out, then whats the use of radiant aegis?

If im summoning Phoenix and everyone is healed at full, what is the use of everlasting flight? what is the use of rekindle?

So, what i want? I want to cast these four utility skills whenever i want, which also will be when needed, regardless of my damage rotation.

[Tulzscha]

And now, if the utility is uncontrolable then is no utility at all, there should be no debate about this, if im going to get damage because a boss mechanic, but carbuncle isnt there because i have bahamuth out, then whats the use of radiant aegis?

That's as ridiculous a statement as saying abilities like Crimson Cyclone don't exist because they're locked behind summons. Which is why I said it, to point out the ridiculousness of your statement. Radiant Aegis lasts 30s, Bahamut lasts 15s. Think about it. Hell I'll do it for you: You're about to use Bahamut, are you going to take damage in the next 15s? If yes use Aegis, if not then don't, if you don't know then pay attention because Bahamut should be coming out around the same time for each raid/trial encounter.

And if you need Searing Light while a demi is out you're playing the job wrong - is it overly punishing to forget? Yes but with how little the job has going on there's no excuse to keep forgetting, you can even use it early because it lasts so long. If you can't do that you can always make a macro.

If im summoning Phoenix and everyone is healed at full, what is the use of everlasting flight? what is the use of rekindle?

It'll still heal if people take damage after summoning Phoenix, it's a 21s hot. Rekindle can stay on a person for up to 30s before being triggered, if you add Phoenix's 15s duration to figure out which tank has aggro or find someone who's damaged that's 45s to make use of the ability, every 2 mins. That's a long time.

Again as I keep saying I don't think these heals are good design, they absolutely could be a lot better but they're not useless. Not everything needs to exist in one extreme or another.

Now with your own words, you say the job is called Summoner, so by your standpoint, should we restrict Resurrection into phoenix phase because Phoenix flavor is about rebirth and healing?

If it was reworked to do so, sure. Not as it exists now. The big difference between Resurrection and the Phoenix heals is duration. If Rez was a buff you put on someone while alive that brought them back when they die it could work though it's not as easy to see who's about to die vs who's about to take damage for Rekindle so if this were to be a thing I'd make it at minimum a minute long buff, probably longer. (And if this change meant SMN's dps goes up a bit due to having a far less reliable rez I'm sure some people would be happy, while others scream and flail like it's the Final Days.)

I want to cast these four utility skills whenever i want, which also will be when needed, regardless of my damage rotation

Alright, that's a fair desire. And if that means SMN's dps gets taxed further? (Not that we know anything about how Squeenix deals with such matters, purely hypothetical.)

[CodeAndGin]

I just miss my dot synergy and having some priority and actually having use for ruin outside of one cast every minute

[Ivven]

I like it. The new rework actually FINALLY (after nearly 10 years of trying) allowed the game to "click" with me. Not every job has to be massively complicated