Summoner rework is a huge dissapointment

[Reinha]

Raise is so niche that I really don't think RDM and SMN should be at the very bottom because of it.

Then who should be? Raise is literally the best utility spell among damage dealers. I challenge you people downplaying it to name another one that is better.

And it doesn't matter if Raise is useless after progression (as if people never die anymore lol), because what is good for farming after prog is not a good way to balance the jobs. Jobs should all bring something useful to the team when you are trying to clear, so that every player contributes and is able to play their chosen job in parties.

[Ggwppino]

SMNs offer a good amount of utility: Free healing for the group + a targeted heal every minute that doesn't come at the cost of dps, a decent self shield every 30s, and the ability to rez which only one other dps can do. They are extremely mobile and ranged with an incredibly straight-forward rotation that's almost impossible to mess up - it doesn't always do well with downtime but that's a design problem more than a numbers problem. And they have a raid buff. It makes sense to me that their adps would be among the lowest.

I think that smn heals are really situational: most of the time they're useless overheal, and single target heal it's not exactly free since you lose an attack. Phoenix already in shadowbringer had design problems and with endwalker they remained, if not worsened. Ress is useless outside progress or casual game but most important smn lacks ogcds to make the filler phase more interesting.

[Sequora]

Then who should be? Raise is literally the best utility spell among damage dealers. I challenge you people downplaying it to name another one that is better.

And it doesn't matter if Raise is useless after progression (as if people never die anymore lol), because what is good for farming after prog is not a good way to balance the jobs. Jobs should all bring something useful to the team when you are trying to clear, so that every player contributes and is able to play their chosen job in parties.

BRD and dancer should be at they bottom with the amount of damage utility they provide. No question.

[Phaty]

Remove raise from dps, buff smn and rdm, and bring relevance back to Phoenix downs

[MrJPtheAssassin]

Then who should be? Raise is literally the best utility spell among damage dealers. I challenge you people downplaying it to name another one that is better.

And it doesn't matter if Raise is useless after progression (as if people never die anymore lol), because what is good for farming after prog is not a good way to balance the jobs. Jobs should all bring something useful to the team when you are trying to clear, so that every player contributes and is able to play their chosen job in parties.

Raise has always been a problem for the caster role because it causes unbalance among the casters. Rdm is better at rez because of dualcast and became a meme as a rez mage back in SB and ShB since they were mostly taken for prog and drop afterward, smn can only rez once per min, and now with EW smn don't really want to rez at all bc swift cast is part of their rotation now, and blm has asked for a rez so they can be apart of prog more. Is raise really good? Yes, but it has caused a lot of problems for the caster role when it comes to filling that role in a party during prog and farming. Personally, I want one of two things to happen to the caster rez. One: just delete it from rdm and smn completely and buff them accordingly. That way we don't have these arguments about who is better for prog and farming among the casters. Or two: Nerf the rez to have a 1 to 2 min cooldown, make it a oGCD and instacast, and make it a role action. That way smn, rdm, and blm has the same type of rez at all time.

[dinnertime]

Then who should be? Raise is literally the best utility spell among damage dealers. I challenge you people downplaying it to name another one that is better.

And it doesn't matter if Raise is useless after progression (as if people never die anymore lol), because what is good for farming after prog is not a good way to balance the jobs. Jobs should all bring something useful to the team when you are trying to clear, so that every player contributes and is able to play their chosen job in parties.

Dancer and Bard because their supports are up 100%?

Even though the DPS that Physical Ranged makes now is pretty unjustified, it makes sense to me that they're at the bottom while closely (emphasis on closely) next to the rest.

Idk what to tell you but Raise is great when used yes, but really not that good when it's also so niche. Not only that, healers get so bored with the amount of healing and mitigation tools they can offer these days (well except WHM now apparently) that it matters even less.

It's really funny because I'm pretty sure the Raise arguments started to appear when SMN powercrept as the highest DPS during SB days which is also unjustified. Now SMN's position in the meta is the most unfavorable its been and Raise isn't going to help it from that.

Also if I never pressed Raise once in a fight, should my DPS still suffer because of it? This is why they should just give SMN/RDM a damage debuff when they use it as compensation, so people would stop complaining about it.

[Reinha]

Personally, I want one of two things to happen to the caster rez. One: just delete it from rdm and smn completely and buff them accordingly. That way we don't have these arguments about who is better for prog and farming among the casters. Or two: Nerf the rez to have a 1 to 2 min cooldown, make it a oGCD and instacast, and make it a role action. That way smn, rdm, and blm has the same type of rez at all time.

I agree with these solutions. It could be an oGCD role action, but I'd say the cd should be longer than that so casters aren't solely responsible for raising. Maybe 5 minutes.

BRD and dancer should be at they bottom with the amount of damage utility they provide. No question.

Dancer and Bard because their supports are up 100%?

Also if I never pressed Raise once in a fight, should my DPS still suffer because of it? This is why they should just give SMN/RDM a damage debuff when they use it as compensation, so people would stop complaining about it.

Maybe I should have clarified that I was talking about rDPS, the total damage contribution that takes into account the damage caused from sharing buffs. DNC has two heals with long cooldowns and BRD has Esuna-lite and a healing buff. If the argument is that a Raise is not useful because healers are powerful and constantly bored, then extra heals are even less useful. They can't save a run if healers die, but a Raise can. Jobs in the ranged role don't even offer TP and MP anymore.

Even if you never press Raise during the whole fight, the point is you still have it. Why take a BRD or DNC as a 4th dps when SMN does equal or more damage (rDPS), is equally mobile but is also able to recover a run when it's needed? Other jobs need to provide something that makes up for their lack of utility, and that something has typically been higher dps.

[Rika007]

I agree with these solutions. It could be an oGCD role action, but I'd say the cd should be longer than that so casters aren't solely responsible for raising. Maybe 5 minutes.

Maybe I should have clarified that I was talking about rDPS, the total damage contribution that takes into account the damage caused from sharing buffs. DNC has two heals with long cooldowns and BRD has Esuna-lite and a healing buff. If the argument is that a Raise is not useful because healers are powerful and constantly bored, then extra heals are even less useful. They can't save a run if healers die, but a Raise can. Jobs in the ranged role don't even offer TP and MP anymore.

Even if you never press Raise during the whole fight, the point is you still have it. Why take a BRD or DNC as a 4th dps when SMN does equal or more damage (rDPS), is equally mobile but is also able to recover a run when it's needed? Other jobs need to provide something that makes up for their lack of utility, and that something has typically been higher dps.

I think at this point we all understand what you are saying, we just don't agree. I just don't view the ability to save a run IF things go wrong as that massive of an ability. Especially since the actual use of said resurrections already comes with very real trade offs (Both jobs taking a hit to their DPS, loss of a mobility tool, and the weakness to the player being rezzed). It's balancing around the idea of the lowest common denominator, aka, the worst players. Which is just not how balance should be done.

If the devs are balancing with that in mind then I'd rather they just axe the rez entirely from the caster role and only allow healers to be in charge of it. Heck they removed mana shift and refresh from the Casters and Ranged DPS to give healers some level of agency, just do it with this too.

[Rolder50]

Then who should be? Raise is literally the best utility spell among damage dealers. I challenge you people downplaying it to name another one that is better.

And it doesn't matter if Raise is useless after progression (as if people never die anymore lol), because what is good for farming after prog is not a good way to balance the jobs. Jobs should all bring something useful to the team when you are trying to clear, so that every player contributes and is able to play their chosen job in parties.

Problem there is that preventing people from dying in the first place is generally superior to picking them up after. Therefore, mitigation tends to be preferred. And what does RDM have over SMN in addition to being able to raise more freely? A mitigation. Why would anyone bring SMN when RDM has more utility and equivalent if not superior damage.

[dinnertime]

To be honest I didn't remember Raise being made an issue at all back then. Even with Bard's quite low personal DPS, it was a sought-after job because it was simply the best support in the game during ARR to SB. In rDPS it was around SMN's level too. SMN did really good DPS and didn't get a party buff until SB, which it compensated for.

It's when the DPS disparity started to expand, and the few times it power-crept BLM was when people started to talk about it. As long as there's not much of a disparity along with making them worth bringing to parties in the first place then I don't think it'll be an issue anymore, because right now they aren't worth bringing much. Like I said, that Raise on SMN isn't saving it from its current position in the meta, and BRD/DNC are a different role and get a bonus for it and even they're having problems so it's not even worth comparing them to each other.