Summoner rework is a huge dissapointment

[Tulzscha]

I see people say that sometimes, where utility is everything that is not dam related but here is the thing do we know for sure the dev balance around that definition of utility? Shoot I personally don't think they use rdps since that is technically a form of measurement that site that should not be named used. I might be wrong but didn't rdps start there in the first place? Just because you believe utility is not related to dam buffs doesn't mean the devs do, if so why is nin always near the bottom of the melee? What utility other than TA does it bring to a party that makes it have the lowest rdps among the melee. The point is if the utility doesn't include buffs like TA, AC, SL, Embolden, and ect then why is nin being taxed so hard compared to other melees who have more healing/mitigation utility like mnk and rpr?

Also on the smn healing utility show me an example everlasting flight or rekindle come useful in current fights that don't just lead to overhealing because they land during times the healing isn't necessarily? SMN so call utility is too depends on its rotation. You as the smn have no say in when or where to use it. Do you know what I can do as a rdm right now? Ask my healers when they want magick barrier, I can't do that for either everlasting flight or rekindle. So I wouldn't call smn's utility good XD

You're nit-picking the use of the word utility. My point is having a raid buff shouldn't result in a tax on your total damage output because it is part of your damage output - it will definitely lower personal dps though. I don't play Ninja nor do I know why SE balances the way they do. Going by fflogs it looks like Ninja was top in ShB and even in EW it's not far from the top at all, what's the problem? All the melee look very close right now, Ninja isn't being taxed hard.

As for SMN's healing: https://www.fflogs.com/reports/f3PbV...aling&source=7 is one example - 26% overhealing on Everlasting Flight, not bad at all for a hot. Just pick a boss select Summoner and sort by healing for more examples. I haven't been raiding with SMN so I can't speak on boss dmg timings with Phoenix but it's definitely not as useless as people make it out to be.

Magick Barrier doesn't actually heal, its reliant on healers to make use of its utility while SMN is not - Magick Barrier should actually buff SMN's healing.

I think that smn heals are really situational: most of the time they're useless overheal, and single target heal it's not exactly free since you lose an attack.

SMN's heals are absolutely free, you don't choose between an attack or a heal you do both and Phoenix's potencies were buffed so it's overall stronger than Bahamut despite having 1 less attack.

[Gruntler]

To be honest I didn't remember Raise being made an issue at all back then..

Summoners were, at the time, trying to justify having higher damage than Black Mage by claiming the Rez wasn't actually utility.

[Reinha]

I just don't view the ability to save a run IF things go wrong as that massive of an ability.

If the devs are balancing with that in mind then I'd rather they just axe the rez entirely from the caster role and only allow healers to be in charge of it. Heck they removed mana shift and refresh from the Casters and Ranged DPS to give healers some level of agency, just do it with this too.

I didn't see you answer the question, which dps job has better non-damage utility than a raise?

I'd be fine with the raise being completely gone, or alternatively just give it to all jobs. If it's not that useful then surely it wouldn't matter if I could raise as a RPR too... That would still leave SMN with other utility such as party heals and good ranged mobility, and no good justification for doing as much damage as jobs such as BLM, MCH, SAM, NIN and DRG who don't have that luxury.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

You're nit-picking the use of the word utility. My point is having a raid buff shouldn't result in a tax on your total damage output because it is part of your damage output - it will definitely lower personal dps though. I don't play Ninja nor do I know why SE balances the way they do. Going by fflogs it looks like Ninja was top in ShB and even in EW it's not far from the top at all, what's the problem? All the melee look very close right now, Ninja isn't being taxed hard.

As for SMN's healing: https://www.fflogs.com/reports/f3PbV...aling&source=7 is one example - 26% overhealing on Everlasting Flight, not bad at all for a hot. Just pick a boss select Summoner and sort by healing for more examples. I haven't been raiding with SMN so I can't speak on boss dmg timings with Phoenix but it's definitely not as useless as people make it out to be.

Magick Barrier doesn't actually heal, its reliant on healers to make use of its utility while SMN is not - Magick Barrier should actually buff SMN's healing.



SMN's heals are absolutely free, you don't choose between an attack or a heal you do both and Phoenix's potencies were buffed so it's overall stronger than Bahamut despite having 1 less attack.

I just say I disagree and I still think buffs are just as much utility as anything else. I also think the devs think this also but who really knows.

As for smn I still think 26% overhealing for a utility is too much. You're right magick barrier does rely on healers that is why you HAVE to talk to your healers and ask them where they want it. Plus it is also free so doesn't cost anything and you get to choose when to use it. So what it relies on healers, still boosts healers heal and that is their job after all to heal and also it reduces magic dam. Healing imo shouldn't be part of a dps job anyway. That is why I think they should delete the casters rezz also since I think that should only be a healers responsibility, not a dps'. At most I think the rez should have a long cooldown for casters. Also, ask any smn about everlasting flight or rekindle they all basically tell you the same, They want the choice to use it and not be part of their rotation. Utility that allows the user to decide when or where to use it is always much better than any utility that is locked behind part of their rotation and they have no say when to use it.

[Tulzscha]

As for smn I still think 26% overhealing for a utility is too much. You're right magick barrier does rely on healers that is why you HAVE to talk to your healers and ask them where they want it. Plus it is also free so doesn't cost anything and you get to choose when to use it. So what it relies on healers, still boosts healers heal and that is their job after all to heal and also it reduces magic dam. Healing imo shouldn't be part of a dps job anyway. That is why I think they should delete the casters rezz also since I think that should only be a healers responsibility, not a dps'. At most I think the rez should have a long cooldown for casters. Also, ask any smn about everlasting flight or rekindle they all basically tell you the same, They want the choice to use it and not be part of their rotation. Utility that allows the user to decide when or where to use it is always much better than any utility that is locked behind part of their rotation and they have no say when to use it.

26% overhealing for a 21s raid wide heal over time that you have no control over. That's actually really good, hots always overheal. Probably the healers in that group were working around it.

Non-damage utility for dps in general I think is good, healing and rezzing specifically should be limited but isn't bad. It's nice to have if the healers go down or are struggling, that's the main point since there's only a couple of them. Too much healing and you're stepping on their toes, yeah. So RDM has to sac dps to heal and SMN can't control when they heal; it's not perfect design but it's not useless either. SMN's heals may be uncontrollable but they last so long they're bound to do something lol unless healers ignore it and force it to overheal but that's on them.

I agree that SMN would be better with more agency over its actions, there's a lot wrong with SMN's design imo.

[dinnertime]

Summoners were, at the time, trying to justify having higher damage than Black Mage by claiming the Rez wasn't actually utility.

Which was crazy talk for sure.

Pretty sure the reasonable people were saying that yes, BLM should be doing more than SMN because SMN was the utility job out of the two.

[Sequora]

Why not just have summoning phoenix give a “rekindle ready buff”, similar to red mage “ver ready buff”. Summoning phoenix would give you the ability to use rekindle sometime in the next 2 minutes.

As far as I can tell, rekindle originates from the summoner anyways.

[Aikaal]

Why not just have summoning phoenix give a “rekindle ready buff”, similar to red mage “ver ready buff”. Summoning phoenix would give you the ability to use rekindle sometime in the next 2 minutes.

As far as I can tell, rekindle originates from the summoner anyways.

That's smart to think of. It probably qwould require a few line of codings to implement but that'd work.

About the raise argument, it's utility that reduces your DPS. It's good to have in progression yeah but on clear runs and optimized runs, I'd never use raise on SMN or RDM. SMN pretty much can't use swift on raise anyways because its a significant damage loss so at this point, BLM is just better in any scenario vbecause 8 second raise cast is a major loss in damage. Yeah, you'll get to progress a bit further but you lose too much.

Raise should honestly but a big instant cast CD (3 minutes). If not given to BLM as a role action then they should be about 3% ahead. Not 7%.

Oh, I just looked at the top 50 breakdown



Machinist still none existent. RDM has about triple more exposure than SMN and BLM has more than both SMN and BLM combined. Granted it isn't as bad as the 4% + 6% on PLD + WAR and the 0% on MCH.

The problem is that even if those are optimized and top meta players picks. SMN still sucks in progression. Went ahead to help some random p2s group, group went it, I went on my RDM; never pugged the fight and never did it on RDM. I can tell that RDM is straight up better than SMN. Because I can log purple with a 580 weapon with multiple mistakes. Embolden > Searing Light. If you ever wondering and say no I'm wrong;





Both from my clears. Mind you, all my experience is on SMN so I should be doing better on SMN. 458 > 269 in term of DPS taxes.

[Ggwppino]

I haven't been raiding with SMN so I can't speak on boss dmg timings with Phoenix but it's definitely not as useless as people make it out to be.

sorry, but I disagree. If I had the ability to decide when to cast the heal it would be useful, but if I am forced even when it is not useful, it means that it is just one more stuff that no one needs. The phoenix problem is this, being forced to use it even when it is not needed (and it is most of the time for the timing, because I certainly do not wait to cast phoenix, except in very rare cases, and I certainly do not wait to cure)

SMN's heals are absolutely free, you don't choose between an attack or a heal you do both and Phoenix's potencies were buffed so it's overall stronger than Bahamut despite having 1 less attack.

they contained the problem increasing mathematically phoenix damage, but the problem is precisely that all wet laundry, hypothetically there could be an attack instead of a heal that you hardly ever use.

it is right that smn doesn't have the dps of a pure dps, but he should decide when to cast his heals, otherwise they are situational and he is only penalized.
I repeat, this class has a serious problem with situational heals and with the lack of ogcd, not pure dps: if these problems are fixed, the dps and utility goes up.

[Aikaal]

SMN's heals are absolutely free, you don't choose between an attack or a heal you do both and Phoenix's potencies were buffed so it's overall stronger than Bahamut despite having 1 less attack.

"free"



The problem is when you have no control on it, it'd be nice on P1S if I could use it on warden's wrath during intemperence but Phoenix never comes at that time. Problem is where everybody has so much support that its not even needed.