When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[Veloran]

They would leave the universe to its eventual death just to buy whoever knows how many more thousands of years of their society instead of taking direct action to address the very attitude that lead them to where they are (which Venat did).

Venat relied on the Zodiark plan for 12,000 years without ever even having told anybody about the threat or so much as implied that the universe might be in danger.

[tokinokanatae]

One of the assertions I find the most interesting about the ultimate fate of the Ancients is the idea of the game trying to show us that they were spoiled.

I remember when Shadowbringers first came out and all we had was Amaurot as a depiction of their lives, people wanted to say that they brought their deaths upon themselves because their "creation magic was obviously a drain on the planet", even though the game specifically goes out of its way to point out that all creation done by them is through internal reserves of aether.

When we got the side stories that gave us even more glimpses into the internal workings of their society, suddenly everything shifted. Now, rather than being an unnatural drain on the planet, the line against them was that they were too obsessed with upholding the natural order, which is, of course, why they deserved to be wiped out.

Finally, with Elpis showing us the widest picture yet, we're back to yet another reason why they deserved to die: they're spoiled (even though they talk amongst themselves when they're facing emotional problems?), decadent (????) and weak (all four of the Unsundered we know spent 12000 years in the single-minded pursuit of what they thought would save their world).

I'll be blunt. There is no reason the Ancients deserved to die. The fact that they did is a tragedy and not one they brought on by doing any one thing. It's a lying comfort to pretend tragedy only visits those people and societies that deserve it.

[Lauront]

One of the assertions I find the most interesting about the ultimate fate of the Ancients is the idea of the game trying to show us that they were spoiled.

I remember when Shadowbringers first came out and all we had was Amaurot as a depiction of their lives, people wanted to say that they brought their deaths upon themselves because their "creation magic was obviously a drain on the planet", even though the game specifically goes out of its way to point out that all creation done by them is through internal reserves of aether.

When we got the side stories that gave us even more glimpses into the internal workings of their society, suddenly everything shifted. Now, rather than being an unnatural drain on the planet, the line against them was that they were too obsessed with upholding the natural order, which is, of course, why they deserved to be wiped out.

Finally, with Elpis showing us the widest picture yet, we're back to yet another reason why they deserved to die: they're spoiled (even though they talk amongst themselves when they're facing emotional problems?), decadent (????) and weak (all four of the Unsundered we know spent 12000 years in the single-minded pursuit of what they thought would save their world).

I'll be blunt. There is no reason the Ancients deserved to die. The fact that they did is a tragedy and not one they brought on by doing any one thing. It's a lying comfort to pretend tragedy only visits those people and societies that deserve it.

Agreed, it's just been a series of reasons as to why they supposedly "deserved" their downfall - and on a similar basis you could say the sundered have long had one coming themselves. It's little but fishing for reasons to excuse the sundering in the end and you are right, they did not deserve it (much as the dragons did not deserve what befell them), and the cited reasons you mention are all fatuous in their own right. The "spoiled" thing just so happens to be the most tenuous lines of reasoning in this case. Maybe the sundered should surrender their ability to use aether, and the Garleans specifically should abandon their tech, and they should all revert to living in caves after an enforced lobotomy of some kind. Wouldn't want to be "spoiled". Fandaniel has the right idea in that lone soldier scenario.

[Lyth]

There is no reason the Ancients deserved to die. The fact that they did is a tragedy and not one they brought on by doing any one thing.

That is a red herring. The historically instructive question to ask is 'What were the factors that lead to Amaurot's decline and fall?'

It's not at all surprising that people are seeing hubris and decadence here, and they're a recurring theme in the fall of many great human civilizations. But you did touch on a good point. One of the biggest factors that lead to Amaurot's demise was its reliance on Creation magic. The Final Days didn't affect the Amaurotians directly. It specifically affected their Creation magic, in particular when it was used in specific areas where the celestial currents were at their weakest. This was all known at the time. They could just as easily have chosen live out their days without the convenience of Creation magic, like mere mortals do. But that would have meant sacrificing their self-perception as 'caretakers of the planet'.

There are other cracks that have shown as well. Amaurot's governance was built around an unquestioning faith in the 14 supremely powerful individuals that make up the Convocation. Obvious problems with nepotism aside, it was interesting to see how much they struggled with the concept of political dissent. It's not really surprising that a society in which conformity and obedience are demanded would struggle with emotional expression and adapting to new circumstances.

It's important to juxtapose the Ancients experiences' with Thavnair's Final Days. Here you have a society of mortals, without the grandiose power or highfalutin wisdom that Amaurot had. Unlike Amaurot, this is not simply an issue of not using a certain spell type. The Final Days corrupts not their magic, but their very flesh and souls. And yet, in the midst of all this devastation, these seemingly powerless survivors found a way to band together and overcame their feelings of despair to resist the transformation. Courage is not the absence of fear. They proved Hermes wrong in their resilience.

'Darkness abideth within every living being, and can never be cast out.
Neither reason nor faith can challenge this immutable truth.
To live is to suffer. And in suffering, find strength and purpose. And hope.'

[Brinne]

That is a red herring. The historically instructive question to ask is 'What were the factors that lead to Amaurot's decline and fall?'

They were attacked and sabotaged, is a good place to start, I think. Nitpicking the victims' "cracks" to search for a source of their fall within them, when they were attacked, seems a bit grotesque to me. Especially if you're trying to contrast that to "us" in the present day, who survived... largely because we had an untold amount of knowledge and resources the initial victims lacked, that we only had access to because we weren't the first targets - because we had a reference point to another group taking the hit first.

It's important to juxtapose the Ancients experiences' with Thavnair's Final Days. Here you have a society of mortals, without the grandiose power or highfalutin wisdom that Amaurot had. Unlike Amaurot, this is not simply an issue of not using a certain spell type. The Final Days corrupts not their magic, but their very flesh and souls. And yet, in the midst of all this devastation, these seemingly powerless survivors found a way to band together and overcame their feelings of despair to resist the transformation. Courage is not the absence of fear. They proved Hermes wrong in their resilience.

This is a funny comparison to me, considering how many Thavnairians we see succumb to despair and become Blasphemies - including the one who rallied the survivors, Matsya, who would have turned just like the rest if not for a last-second rescue by an outside party. Are we then to examine the deep flaws of the culture of Thavnair to understand why that mother and her children in Vanaspati all turned? Did Vrtra screw up by giving his people too stable, too good a life, instead of conditioning them better to accept suffering? What "flaws" are we to understand we must learn from when examining a baby despairing and beginning to turn, if not for a one-in-a-billion shot of a nice dragon being there at the right place at the exact right time? Do you see how strange and absurd trying to pin down a vulnerability of despair to concrete factors, to "flaws" to tsk-tsk at, begins to become?

[AlysanneVrannai]

This is a funny comparison to me, considering how many Thavnairians we see succumb to despair and become Blasphemies - including the one who rallied the survivors, Matsya, who would have turned just like the rest if not for a last-second rescue by an outside party. Are we then to examine the deep flaws of the culture of Thavnair to understand why that mother and her children in Vanaspati all turned? Did Vrtra screw up by giving his people too stable, too good a life, instead of conditioning them better to accept suffering? What "flaws" are we to understand we must learn from when examining a baby despairing and beginning to turn, if not for a one-in-a-billion shot of a nice dragon being there at the right place at the exact right time? Do you see how strange and absurd trying to pin down a vulnerability of despair to concrete factors, to "flaws" to tsk-tsk at, begins to become?

People on the Source are far more susceptible to dynamis than the Ancients ever were, this is why they so easily succumb to it. Even then, Matsya managed to stave it off with mantras and seeing hope completely saved him.

[tokinokanatae]

People on the Source are far more susceptible to dynamis than the Ancients ever were, this is why they so easily succumb to it. Even then, Matsya managed to stave it off with mantras and seeing hope completely saved him.

"Seeing hope" is a poetic way to say "saved by a third party out of the blue." It is a pity that--judging by her own recollection--Venat didn't see fit to extend that sort of "hope" to her people as she strolled past them being attacked, if that is what it takes to make sure people don't succumb to despair.

[EaraGrace]

"Seeing hope" is a poetic way to say "saved by a third party out of the blue." It is a pity that--judging by her own recollection--Venat didn't see fit to extend that sort of "hope" to her people as she strolled past them being attacked, if that is what it takes to make sure people don't succumb to despair.

And yet the people of Palakas Stand did not rally themselves only when Vrtra arrived, they found their own strength.

Simply put I think many are missing the key message here; the issue isn’t that the Ancients or the Sundered were inherently stronger, but that one possessed the means to create an easy solution to their problems that would in turn damn them, while the other is forced to contend with life’s miseries without the easy out. The Sundered are forced to contend with morality, with the inevitability of the end, and in turn come to grapple with despair and meaning in a way the Ancients just couldn’t. Which again, it doesn’t mean their superior at all, they’re just like the Ancients in the vast majority of ways. It’s the mistake of the Ascians to believe that one side need be more worthy to exist.

[Cleretic]

"Seeing hope" is a poetic way to say "saved by a third party out of the blue." It is a pity that--judging by her own recollection--Venat didn't see fit to extend that sort of "hope" to her people as she strolled past them being attacked, if that is what it takes to make sure people don't succumb to despair.

...you realize that scene wasn't literal, right? Or did you think that Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus walked down a street with no care for a man being eaten beside them, and that both the first two sacrifices and the Sundering took place over a single seven minute period?

Judging by the fact she's pretty roughed-up herself, Venat probably wasn't exactly waiting out the End of Days in safety.

[Brinne]

People on the Source are far more susceptible to dynamis than the Ancients ever were, this is why they so easily succumb to it.

Ah, yes, when the Ancients succumb to the Final Days, it's a result of their personal failings and weaknesses. However, when the Sundered do, they can't help it because of biological happenstance that isn't their fault, which is why the Scions also all immediately exploded in Thavnair as well. Wait a second...

Even then, Matsya managed to stave it off with mantras and seeing hope completely saved him.

Yes, an outside force completely beyond his control appearing to save him, well, saved him. He bought himself a few minutes of time, but still became overwhelmed by the situation and would have succumbed as an individual, mantras and all - a point made in the game by Alisaie, who discusses that what one person can endure can break another, and there's no moral judgment attached to that. It's largely based on happenstance and luck. It's unfortunate for the Ancients that they weren't, frankly, lucky enough that Midgardsormr didn't arrive during their time so that his brood could have come to their dramatic rescue like they did for the Thavnairians.