When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[Necrotica]

Gods I hate that cutscene so much. It's from Venat's POV so it's biased and it's clearly not a faithful retelling of events. I mean, if we're not allowed to bring up anything from ShB or Amaurot as fact because it's only "one side of the story" or "Emet's interpretation" then this should be no different. As with most things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. There's nothing other than that cutscene with the Zodiark Cultist Strawmen group to indicate the Ancients as a whole were like that, on the contrary, we know for a fact they weren't because Venat had a following of "no small number". The question I'd like answered is what was her threshold to not sunder the world?

The Ancients were so divided over the fate of the star that Elidibus exited Zodiark to mediate. I doubt any further sacrifices were going to be made without him in the pilot's seat, which would imply Venat sundered the world in the middle of negotiations. It comes across as not everyone complied quickly enough so, F it, sundered!

Kinda sad her own POV paints her in such an unflattering light.

[EaraGrace]

Gods I hate that cutscene so much. It's from Venat's POV so it's biased and it's clearly not a faithful retelling of events. I mean, if we're not allowed to bring up anything from ShB or Amaurot as fact because it's only "one side of the story" or "Emet's interpretation" then this should be no different. As with most things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. There's nothing other than that cutscene with the Zodiark Cultist Strawmen group to indicate the Ancients as a whole were like that, on the contrary, we know for a fact they weren't because Venat had a following of "no small number". The question I'd like answered is what was her threshold to not sunder the world?

Theres no difference in the vision and how the populace is described in regards to Zodiark. "No small number" does not indicate many.

The Ancients were so divided over the fate of the star that Elidibus exited Zodiark to mediate. I doubt any further sacrifices were going to be made without him in the pilot's seat, which would imply Venat sundered the world in the middle of negotiations. It comes across as not everyone complied quickly enough so, F it, sundered!

Elidibus' return was not due to their being a large divide, but that there was a divide at all, one that worried the Convocation. We know by the time Venats group finalize their decision to summon Hydaelyn that the Convocation was not listening to them. Clearly time passed.

[Lauront]

I suspect her logic was failing to convince them, in all honesty, as between the time Elidibus emerged and the Anamnesis scene, the number of her following is implied to have withered down to just a few. Add into that Elidibus potentially communicating the grief of the souls inside Zodiark at not being able to return to the star (ergo, trapped in a limbo of a kind) and proving that this manoeuvre was possible, it may have further eroded away any opposition to the plan against arguments which were at best philosophical in nature since she had committed to not revealing the true underlying reasoning behind them, and merely had exhortations against forsaking suffering. As an aside, even the Scions are perplexed by this when they see the Plenty in the Dead Ends and how that world's pursuit of perfection ended - whatever one thinks of it. This argument was going to be a hard sell without facts to back it, so platitudes would not cut it.

[Rulakir]

I suspect her logic was failing to convince them, in all honesty, as between the time Elidibus emerged and the Anamnesis scene, the number of her following is implied to have withered down to just a few. Add into that Elidibus potentially communicating the grief of the souls inside Zodiark at not being able to return to the star and proving that this manoeuvre was possible, it may have further eroded away any opposition to the plan against arguments which were at best philosophical in nature since she had committed to not revealing the true underlying reasoning behind them, and merely had exhortations against forsaking suffering. As an aside, even the Scions are perplexed by this when they see the Plenty in the Dead Ends and how that world's pursuit of perfection ended - whatever one thinks of it. This argument was going to be a hard sell without facts to back it, so platitudes would not cut it.

Given how Venat is depicted, as a former Convocation member and trusted advisor hence the white robes, I'm also left to believe that the issue was the message and not the messenger. It's interesting they decided to go with the Ancient souls being trapped within Zodiark because, IMO, that made the third sacrifice significantly more justifiable. We're told returning to the star is a fundamental part of their belief system and they're being deprived of that.

[Lauront]

Definitely, I think that may have added to the emotional gravity of it all. Had they been given an adequate explanation? They may have focused on the more immediate goal of wiping out Meteion and left the restoration of those souls for when Zodiark had fulfilled his purpose. We can but speculate.

[tokinokanatae]

They could just as easily have chosen live out their days without the convenience of Creation magic, like mere mortals do. But that would have meant sacrificing their self-perception as 'caretakers of the planet'.

Their creation magic was innate to them and the issue wasn't active use, but passive. Their fears came to life before their very eyes. It's like saying that the Final Days that attacked Thavnair could have been averted if people would have just "stopped getting scared", which I think all of us would agree if ridiculous.

Amaurot's governance was built around an unquestioning faith in the 14 supremely powerful individuals that make up the Convocation. Obvious problems with nepotism aside, it was interesting to see how much they struggled with the concept of political dissent.

While not the Convocation, we can see that there is debate about government in the Halls of Rhetoric: "No no no, my position has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of unique identity and whether or not it is retained! Rather, I posit that the reproductions of a given concept are inherently imperfect, and thus they are themselves unique, albeit in minor but significant degrees, and─most importantly─this variance is not to be condemned, but celebrated! Better that than to strive in vain for an impossible standard that, even if met, would leave us lesser for lack of diversity!" RE: the Bureau of the Architect's standards for creation approval.

I wouldn't characterize that as struggling with political dissent.

The Final Days corrupts not their magic, but their very flesh and souls. And yet, in the midst of all this devastation, these seemingly powerless survivors found a way to band together and overcame their feelings of despair to resist the transformation.

This doesn't sound unlike what the Ancients did to me. They came together and found a solution to their problem, which they then enacted.

What a lot of people seem to forget is that even since the days of Amaurot, the Ancients have not been presented as some sort of blob or an object lesson in what not to do; they have been presented as human beings. Human beings from a society with highs and lows, but people that still laugh, love, and come together in times of crisis. They didn't do anything wrong. They handled the Finals Days as well as any society could be expected to handle the Final Days.

The answer was already given in Shadowbringers: it doesn't matter if the Shards ARE "objectively inferior" in most ways to the Ancients--this is not a moral judgment, mind you, but a hypothesis--they still have the right to live and oppose the Ascians. You don't need to then look for reasons why "the Sundered people are ACTUALLY superior" because they survived. It doesn't matter. It's not about superior/inferior to begin with, and trying to frame it in those terms is to borrow Emet-Selch's flawed reasoning that he used to justify taking actions he hated against a people he hated even more.

[Lyth]

It was never a competition to begin with. Amaurot is long gone. Humanity is in the present. The main reason why it's instructive to discuss Amaurot here at all is to learn from their mistakes.

Creation magic is not something that you use passively. Remember that this is the true form of summoning magic. It takes a lot of active concentration to use, because you need to hold the form of your creation steady in your mind's eye.

'By your bemused expression, I gather you find it odd that your elders can fail in so simple an application of creation magicks? It is more common than you realize, little one. In this instance, a gaggle of children was passing by as I held the image of the robes in my mind's eye. Simply by becoming aware of their presence was the form influenced and the final product changed. All things considered, it could have been worse. Just the other day, I was attempting to conceive a white haired lion, when all of a sudden this exquisite eagle alighted on the nearby railing, giving me quite the shock - and dramatically altering my initial concept!'

Amaurot is most definitely a society built around conformity. One of the very first things that you learn is that your individualistic way of dressing is a sign of depravity in their eyes. 'To delight in disparity is the mark of the morally deficient.' 'The eyes of the collective are ever watching and weighing your worth.'

The common person never speaks out against the Convocation while you're in Amaurot, given that they are held as 'the wisest and most puissiant' out of all of them. And it's worth remembering that, despite being part of its supreme leadership, Azem was unpersoned simply for refusing to tow the party line.

It's also worth noting that the way that the survivors of Thavnair warded off their Final Days was exactly as you described. They mastered their fears through their spirituality, by reciting the teachings of their old gods. They found strength and comfort in each other. And I think that's more the central theme of the story, than it is about ruminating about the 'what ifs' of a long dead civilization.

"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings;
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

[tokinokanatae]

It was never a competition to begin with. Amaurot is long gone. Humanity is in the present. The main reason why it's instructive to discuss Amaurot here at all is to learn from their mistakes.

Even taking the rest of your post aside, I think this is a nice summation on the core of our disagreement. I think Amaurot and the Ancients worth discussing and and of itself, because I think exploring other cultures (even if they're fictional) to be interesting. Distilling it down to "their greatest value is in their use" is a rather amusingly Ancient sentiment we see expressed by more than one person in Elpis, though!

[Veloran]

It was never a competition to begin with. Amaurot is long gone. Humanity is in the present.

Kind of a relative concept given our very flagrant use of time travel. "The past" "the present", and "the future" are not so distinct.

Creation magic is not something that you use passively. Remember that this is the true form of summoning magic. It takes a lot of active concentration to use, because you need to hold the form of your creation steady in your mind's eye.

Except that isn't what was happening. Their creation magic was actively "wrested from their control" and dread forcibly "siphoned from their minds". It isn't the case that they were just engaging in it's use in an afflicted area and out popped a monster, something was using their own magics against them against their will.

The common person never speaks out against the Convocation while you're in Amaurot,

We clearly do see "the common person" arguing about the bureaucracy's policies and the ideals of conformity though, as tokino quoted previously.

And it's worth remembering that, despite being part of its supreme leadership, Azem was unpersoned simply for refusing to tow the party line.

It's my understanding that Azem chose to leave the Convocation. Hence being a defector rather than an outcast. Afterwards they simply didn't refill the seat.

It's also worth noting that the way that the survivors of Thavnair warded off their Final Days was exactly as you described. They mastered their fears through their spirituality, by reciting the teachings of their old gods.

The Ancients had no gods in which to place their faith. And I very much think you would argue that when they created one to put their faith in, that was them choosing to turn away from their despair rather than confront it.

[Lieri]

During Island Sanctuary release, the players will be able to choose wheter to continue the adventure or stop being WoL and become a farmer. If you choose the later you will have a different expansion to buy later on. The first one will be FFXIV Sanctuary : Back To Nature in which the heart system will be implemented. Once an NPC heart is fully red, you will be able to marry them.