Dark Knight Megathread

[AziraSyuren]

Honestly, speedrunners opinions shouldn't be listened to too much. A job can be broken, they'll say it's fine if it's DPS is the highest.

Speedrunners complain plenty about how jobs play. What are you on about? Shit job design affects them more than anyone because they're the ones pushing jobs as far as they can go.

[Archwizard]

It is funny that you mention this, because in ShB, DRK got, despite being the Posterboy, completely outshined by GNB which was not only a new Tank to the Rooster, but also advertised in a very flashy way by Tankred in the Trailer.

Sure, the point I was just trying to make is that the twin notions that the devs:

1. Wanted DRK, specifically, to fail, but then made it a posterboy for an expansion and cast all player focus and scrutiny onto it
2. Wanted to dunk on a tank job, or ran out of ideas to balance more than just PLD and WAR, but then introduced another tank that "outshined" it in that period

... are utterly ridiculous.

From my point of view the Devs actually don't try to make DRK fun at all just balanced,

And that's a valid concern to have. However, I remind you that fun is subjective, and devs (as creators) innately have a biased understanding of what others find enjoyable to play in their game.

And even when they agree that gameplay X is fun, they may not believe that it is a healthy position for the job or a direction they want to undertake for the future. For instance, they will probably get around to nerfing WAR because by the same merits, being OP is "fun" but unsustainable.

Yes, they removed several actions from DRK, but A) they wanted to take the job into a new direction with the introduction of/focus on TBN and B) given the sheer number of actions they removed according to the compilation video, clearly they realized they had bloated it with way too many buttons and sought both to streamline and future-proof it. I will grant that it's plausible they trimmed too much off in favor of TBN, but at this point several of the actions removed are incompatible with the current system anyway.

And frankly, as a Stormblood-baby, I cannot tell you if there were flaws of the HW DRK that might have pressed such decisions, or whether its praise is tinted in shades of rose. All I can say is I've heard mixed reviews about the old Dark Arts system, despite how often people seem to beg for its return when talking about what the job "lost".

[shao32]

And that's a valid concern to have. However, I remind you that fun is subjective, and devs (as creators) innately have a biased understanding of what others find enjoyable to play in their game.

And even when they agree that gameplay X is fun, they may not believe that it is a healthy position for the job or a direction they want to undertake for the future. For instance, they will probably get around to nerfing WAR because by the same merits, being OP is "fun" but unsustainable.

Yes, they removed several actions from DRK, but A) they wanted to take the job into a new direction with the introduction of/focus on TBN and B) given the sheer number of actions they removed according to the compilation video, clearly they realized they had bloated it with way too many buttons and sought both to streamline and future-proof it. I will grant that it's plausible they trimmed too much off in favor of TBN, but at this point several of the actions removed are incompatible with the current system anyway.

And frankly, as a Stormblood-baby, I cannot tell you if there were flaws of the HW DRK that might have pressed such decisions, or whether its praise is tinted in shades of rose. All I can say is I've heard mixed reviews about the old Dark Arts system, despite how often people seem to beg for its return when talking about what the job "lost".

From my experience with this game and the dev team i have to arge about the "direction" of the job. For example, there was a time the dev team consider that Bard and the new ranged job Machinist should become casters, Bard was one of the most "popular" jobs of the expansion in HW if we judge his usage across the game but that didn't stop getting a wave after wave of complains about his gameplay and they change they mind and make the Ranged role the one we know today based on that, even Bard get changed when they lose they party support gameplay from SB and they finally bring it back as players request, something that doesn't seems to work for DRK and his mechanics for some reason despite of all this years complaining about it.
They has made several reworks/simplifications of mechanics and several adjustments on many skills across the years on many many jobs, but DRK seems to be a special case, why? bcs at contrary that jobs like DRG who get his blood of dragon mechanic simplified and adapted better so the player could manage better the new skills and mechanics on top of it or just have less annoyances like when wheeling thrust and fang and claw proc use to be totally rng when you get one DRK just only saw his mechanics complety removed or destroyed to have "mechanics" that have zero playability like current Darkside or living shadow.

From the original DRK back on HW only the parry mechanics aka the procs of low blow and reprisal and the tank stance was an inconvenient to the current direction of the game, things like Scourge, combo finisher Delirium, Dark arts, SB Delirium, original Abyssal drain, Reprisal and a large ect never has represented a problem for the current state of the game but we still see them removed or painfully degraded to an almost useless state for no reason.

There is no direction of the job, i can't say what cross they minds but i can judge they work and DRK screams no only a total lack of direction but total negligence and care from them, compared to other jobs DRK is totally forgothen for them and considering the huge amount of time the job has only seen degradation of his mechanics and his very esence without nothing to replace it to justify such actions just easily make any person belive that they don't have any real consideration for the job and the players who play it.
I will point i won't say such a thing so lightly in normal circustances but DRK has seen years and years of Devs behavior against the job.

So with all respect of course i will disagree on any statement to point that the Devs care about the job, i leveled many jobs and i follow they evolution across the expansions and at contrary that jobs that have been changed in a way on an other with a direction on mind DRK changes it's really clear that hasn't been made bcs they have a purpose on them more than "they complain about it? remove it then and don't bother to add anything interesting either to replace it, in fact just copy paste inner release", there is nothing that justified living dead stay what it is, neither Abyssal drain, the copy paste of Inner release or the 2 lazy traits of living shadow and unmend trait too.
In a game where every job get traits the same way i would accept it partially and call it a day but in a game where only DRK suffer such things and how they keep ignoring our request and do nothing about it just feed my opinion about they don't care at all about the job nor even work for make us happy with it, just dealt with it and keep working on the jobs they like it more, it's clear they have devotion for the game and want they customers enjoy it as much as we want but that devotion cleary doesn't apply on DRK at all and im still waiting for them to prove me wrong.

sorry for the biblic post ^^

[ItsUrBoi]

Hello!
I have started doing savage and I noticed that DRK's mitigation isn't nearly as good as the other tanks right now - not only that, but Living Dead is also a pain to deal with because everyone is playing Sage right now, and the number of healer compositions has gone up massively. Basically, unless you have a White Mage, you are powerless to even contribute to you being healed to full.
I'd like to point out that while the mitigation is close to the other tanks, although not great, it still has many problems.
Here are my suggestions:

->Oblation could be a trait which upgrades TBN to offer an additional 15% damage reduction as well, besides its 25% shield, and changes its animation to Oblation's. It looks cooler I think.
->TBN should not cost MP. I am not experienced enough to say if its CD should be changed.
-> If broken TBN would grant 1 free use of Solve Survivor.
->Remove Dark Mind and add Sole Survivor. Dark Mind's damage reduction and Oblation's is moved to TBN's upgrade to compensate as an overall damage reduction for all damage types.
->Sole Survivor could heal you for a high potency. For example: 800 potency heal. off GCD, 20 seconds of DarkSide as cost.
The cost and heal potency should be thought more of before however. The point isn't to allow yourself to get out of Living Dead on your own, but to make it easier for healers to take you out of it, while giving you some sustain after a tank buster properly mitigated or a bit of heal on demand. An implementation based on stacks like Oblation could also work, I thought correlating it to Darkside would allow more experienced players to play around with the duration according to Edge , Blood weapon, and raid buff windows to maximize - which would give the job some fun in my humble opinion.

If you want to mitigate as DRK, you have to press 3 to even 4 abilities ( TBN + Oblation + Dark Mind +/- Shadow Wall ). Being the heavy off GCD tank that is way too much.
All the other tanks mitigate Savage tank busters and mechanics in Ultimate with usually 2 abilities ( GNB: HoC + Nebula, PLD: Holly Sheltron + Sentinel etc ), and perhaps adding in something else as is the case.
Upgrading TBN to include Oblation and Dark Mind's damage reduction's would solve this I think.
The reward for TBN breaking could be that instead of an Edge, you get a free Solve Survivor which you could use to heal the damage you have taken after a tank buster.
Sole Survivor in my example, would solve many problems. 20 seconds of Darkside would be enough to help yourself trough Living Dead massively. while you won't be able to spam it for too long because you will run out of DarkSide. Getting 1 Sole Survivor if TBN breaks would allow you to heal back damage after a very dangerous tank buster.
This would also mean the more Edge/Flood you do, the more damage you do, the more you can heal - but it still wouldn't beat the sustain of Warrior, Paladin's, and GNBs.

[Ryaduera]

->TBN should not cost MP. I am not experienced enough to say if its CD should be changed.

I like these ideas and I'll just comment on this in a constructive way. If you are removing the cost of TBN it should definitely have a longer cooldown because while TBN currently has a <50% uptime, you not only don't get the full 7s ideally but it also is most certainly not used off of cooldown because it uses DRK DPS resource, so it's uptime is significantly smaller than that of HoC, HS, BW, from the other tanks (especially HS since its recast time is so short that using it with full oath gauge does not risk losing it for heavy incoming damage and can have 2 consecutive uses). 15s would be too short for an ability as potent as a 25% barrier with 15% reduction that has no cost otherwise, but I can see it going into the 25s area. Alternatively it could cost Darkside time (Technically indirectly costing MP, bot post-spending which would be better design than pre-DPS based defensives in the current state of the game) and keep a short recast as a result, but that's just conjecture. I like your ideas though, especially to bring back Sole Survivor.

[Shurrikhan]

If you are removing the cost of TBN it should definitely have a longer cooldown because while TBN currently has a <50% uptime

Given that you can pop more than 3 TBNs per minute (hold over 75% [time on cooldown]) even in most floors of Normal Pandemonium, couldn't its Savage uptime issues (consequent more to faint potency loss than insufficient incoming damage) be largely remedied just by letting Dark Arts stack (or give a faint damage bonus to the DA'ed cast enough to keep it worthwhile to do more casts per raid buff cycle than just the one cast more than is necessary to avoid overcapping MP)?

[Ryaduera]

Given that you can pop more than 3 TBNs per minute (hold over 75% uptime) even in most floors of Normal Pandemonium, couldn't its Savage uptime issues (consequent more to faint potency loss than insufficient incoming damage) be largely remedied just by letting Dark Arts stack (or give a faint damage bonus to the DA'ed cast enough to keep it worthwhile to do more casts per raid buff cycle than just the one cast more than is necessary to avoid overcapping MP)?

It is literally impossible to keep more than 50% uptime. The ability lasts 7 seconds at its longest and it's cooldown is 15 seconds. Even if the barrier lasted all 7 seconds that is less than 50% uptime, but ideally it breaks pre-7 seconds. If you got all 7 seconds out of the ability and used it off cooldown every 15 seconds no matter what that is 46.6(repeating 6)% uptime so I have no idea where you're getting this 75% uptime idea from.

[Shurrikhan]

It is literally impossible to keep more than 50% uptime. The ability lasts 7 seconds at its longest and it's cooldown is 15 seconds. Even if the barrier lasted all 7 seconds that is less than 50% uptime. If you got all 7 seconds out of the ability and used it off cooldown every 15 seconds no matter what that is 46.6(repeating 6)% uptime so I have no idea where you're getting this 75% uptime idea from.

Sorry, I mispoke. I should have said "time on cooldown".

Or, to put it another way, you're able to get out at least 75% HP shielding per minute. For a shield, so long as that shield does in fact get fully consumed, uptime is hardly the most relevant metric.

[Ryaduera]

Sorry, I mispoke. I should have said "time on cooldown".

In that case I'll clarify that post was specifically playing off his ideas which involved removing Dark Arts from the ability and replacing it with Sole Survivor, making the duscussion of Dark Arts stack count not exactly relevant in context. At least, that's how I read it. Letting it give 2 stacks of 2 different things would be a bit much to say the least. Also, in the context of adding a mitigation percentage to it, uptime becomes more important since from Barrier style defensives all you really want out of it is for the entire shield to be absorbed, but for percentages you want uptime.

Or, to put it another way, you're able to get out at least 75% HP shielding per minute. For a shield, so long as that shield does in fact get fully consumed, uptime is hardly the most relevant metric.

And for the above post the hypothetical added a percentage to it, making uptime now important on the ability. Again, we agree on this point. Shields only matter if the entire shield was utilized, but percentages require uptime to be useful. An ability with both must also do both.

[Shurrikhan]

And for the above post the hypothetical added a percentage to it, making uptime now important on the ability. Again, we agree on this point. Shields only matter if the entire shield was utilized, but percentages require uptime to be useful. An ability with both must also do both.

Gotcha, gotcha. Sorry, I just brainfarted as a result of talking to some DRKs about their TBN "uptime" in savage, where they used "uptime" to refer to their ability to break as many TBNs as possible (portion of possible cooling time not wasted nor punished beyond not getting those Edges under raid buffs). Given that I've gotten picky about terminology before, there's no excuse for my slip-up there. Again, my apologies.

Yes, so long as we stick the 15% mitigation onto TBN, uptime would be of import, too. I think at that point you'd care less about the overall uptime than just timing it to tankbusters, especially if the cooldown remained more flexible --but that flexibility would in turn require a bottleneck, be that MP or some other means of potential punishment-- but just the same.

@ItsUrBoi. My main concern with this TBN suggestion is that it'd then amount to a 25% HP shield, a 15% damage reduction for 7s, and an 800-potency heal. Even on 25s, which I'd rather avoid regardless, wouldn't that be especially strong (and, truly pushed all into TBN, rather than TBN just being overvalued or DRK's EW kit neglected)? Now, that's not necessarily a problem; it's just not a direction I'd want to dig that much more deeply into, as I'd love to spread those capacities about a bit more as to offer further interest to the rest of our kit (e.g., Blood skills giving some added sustain, since they're decently bankable and could therefore pack a good punch and would be nicely timeable).

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Dang, your new sig is no joke, Ryu. I think your race has changed twice over these last two posts?