Endwalker White Mage has Issues

[Ryme]

WHM is roughly equal with AST on most fights but since WHM has to get carried to put out these numbers, has horrible MP economy and a laughably small toolkit with long cooldowns, making it inflexible and AST can put out consistent dps while having full access to their nuclear healbomb toolkit without any dps loss whatsoever, has crazy MP economy, quick recovery and a steroid button for GCD heals for prog/ glorious chaos... why take a WHM? It doesn't matter that dps is on par.

You're absolutely right, all the points you bring up are 100% true. I have never intended to give the impression that I thought whm is in a good spot right now, quite the opposite. I have spent many posts in this thread proposing and discussing ways that whm could potentially be improved.

That's the thing though, WHM's theoretical competitiveness is all it has left once the mandatory simplicity filter gets applied.

I think you are conflating simplicity with poor design. Without changing anything about the other healers or anything else about whm glare's potency could be buffed to 1000, misery 4000, and medica 2 could be changed to be instant cast, have no cooldown, be totally free and restore 20000 total potency, whm would instantly be the best healer in the game by a mile and still be just as simple and just as poorly designed. Simplicity, good design and competitiveness are independent variables.

[Semirhage]

I think you are conflating simplicity with poor design. Without changing anything about the other healers or anything else about whm glare's potency could be buffed to 1000, misery 4000, and medica 2 could be changed to be instant cast, have no cooldown, be totally free and restore 20000 total potency, whm would instantly be the best healer in the game by a mile and still be just as simple and just as poorly designed. Simplicity, good design and competitiveness are independent variables.

Those variables should be independent, but they aren't. WHM is the worst healer because it's simple (and also badly designed). This has gone back and forth in a circular argument on the Healer forums since Heavensward. WHM is the simplest -> easiest to play -> should be weaker because it's easier to play -> can't have utility because having no utility is its identity -> so it's simple and weak and uncompetitive -> but what do you expect it has to be simple because that's its identity.

You're right that it could have its numbers buffed and be competitive, and still be unfun. One of the things that gets rough when it comes to talking about the healer role (and WHM in particular) is that the issues with their design are just so numerous that it's impossible to cover them all in one conversation. WHM isn't fun to play and it's not competitive and it has no identity, and these have been more or less true for three expansions now. I'm convinced that the decision to keep it uncompetitive is directly tied to its simplicity (and popularity). When you take stock of just the sheer number of things the other healers can do that WHM just...can't, it's ridiculous. Want to shield the party? Sucks to be you. Offer a damage boost? Whoops can't do it. Movement skill? Nah you don't get one. Oh, is there anything you can do that the other healers can't? Mmmmm, not really. Free raise? Oh wait the other three just have excellent MP recovery and they aren't as bothered. As a WHM, you just have a bunch of artificial problems to work around because your class is gimped and just can't do a bunch of stuff, so you get carried by your cohealer.

WHM's "identity" used to be the "pure raw healer". We told Square over and over again that this doesn't constitute an identity, because either your higher output is required (and therefore your class is mandatory), or it's not, and it's overhealing. Well it looks like at some point they tacitly acknowledged this and just buffed everyone else's healing to be equivalent (and in many cases better). So now WHM's identity is....uh...it's the one you could train a piece of broccoli to play. Wow, what an identity, sure inspires there. And as long as that remains the central rule around which the job -must- be designed, it's going to be designed like crap.

Semir, i always love reading your posts. <3
That's all i wanted to say.

I don't always agree with the visceralness of their posts, but it sure gets a laugh out of me every time. And I can't fault them for their rage. I feel it too, like watching someone do something wrong and continue to make the same mistake over and over. At some point, you just wish you could reach through the screen and fix it yourself.

Kisses.

[Ryme]

One of the things that gets rough when it comes to talking about the healer role (and WHM in particular) is that the issues with their design are just so numerous that it's impossible to cover them all in one conversation.

Well, that is generally why I started this thread lol. But regarding everything else you brought up, I think I have a reasonable grasp of where you're coming from now, even if I don't agree with everything you said, based on the way you worded it. I would be interested to hear what you think of the mini rework I proposed earlier in the thread. The goal of which was to address the biggest issues whm is facing without adding brand new abilities or fundamentally altering any of the jobs current systems. I would also obviously be interested in any other thoughts people have in regards to it or how they might go about changing the job themselves.

[QooEr]

whm doesnt even need That much to make it competitive again. or at the very least not a liability anyway.

Making lilies dps neutral, giving assize a charge, and making thin air work on 2-3 spells are three very simple changes that would fix a lot of whms problems.

i wouldn't say its enough to make it Good, but it would solve all its mp issues and it would actually have lossless healing so the cohealer wouldnt need to carry all the healing anymore.

[Semirhage]

Well, that is generally why I started this thread lol. But regarding everything else you brought up, I think I have a reasonable grasp of where you're coming from now, even if I don't agree with everything you said, based on the way you worded it. I would be interested to hear what you think of the mini rework I proposed earlier in the thread. The goal of which was to address the biggest issues whm is facing without adding brand new abilities or fundamentally altering any of the jobs current systems. I would also obviously be interested in any other thoughts people have in regards to it or how they might go about changing the job themselves.

I think those fixes would help with a lot of the unnecessarily frustrating parts of WHM's kit that make WHM the weakest healer in the role, but fixing healer engagement as a whole is a much larger undertaking. If it makes sense, I'd almost rather those changes didn't get implemented, because it'd be easy for Square to just rebalance the math and leave the job still unrewarding and unfun to play, but wash their hands of it because it's "fixed". I'm approaching from a jaded vet healer perspective where I'm sick of the entire design. I get how infuriating it is that a lot of the frankly stupid design decisions Square makes have ridiculous clunk that's pretty trivial to avoid with just some number tweaks, and at the same time I wish they'd put some actual care and consideration into designing healers instead of just removing the "weak" part from "unfun *and* weak".

Though I'm complaining primarily about balance within the role, the reason I'm complaining about it is because I think actually designing the healers to be fun to play will also fix that imbalance as a side-effect. WHM is trapped as worst-in-role because its kit is just so incomplete. It's not a particularly outstanding burst healer, because the other healers do it better. It's not a strong damaging healer, because the other healers either have higher potencies (Sage) or have followed the design direction that actually complements this game's combat system, i.e. moving the healing power into oGCDs, which not only allows you to heal largely for free, but also frees up even more time to deal damage, further widening the gap between the healers.

WHM's core design is just so outdated. The absurd number of oGCDs the other healers bring, the fact that a lot of the other healers' spells and abilities are just straight superior to anything WHM has to offer, the list is just staggering. I'm looking at YOU, Tetra vs Essential Dignity. Why is Aquaveil just straight up worse than Exaltation? How about Zoe + Pneuma vs Temperance (or Plenary) and Cure 3? Wider radius, deals damage, higher potency, heals the tank extra? So much for the "pure burst healer" when Sage is just superior. Heck...Pneuma is a GCD heal that's on a long cooldown and heals for a large amount in an AOE...but is also not a DPS loss. Cool, so glad Sage can just casually accomplish in one ability what WHM spends its entire job gauge farting around with and doesn't even manage -that- much. Why the hell is every single thing in WHM's kit impressive on paper, except then you can just point at an equivalent ability in half the role that's just hilariously better for no reason?

Even if WHM's numbers made it competitive, it brings nothing unique to the table and never has. Not since Heavensward. It doesn't stand out in any way.

[Ryme]

I do get where you are coming form on the kind not wanting those types of changes, and the dissatisfaction of most of whm kit being inferior version to the other healers, makes sense. I've tended to propose changes that are not to far out from the current iteration because, let's be honest healers (whm) are in this state because SE doesn't seem to have the clearest idea of what their design philosophy for them should be (both as a role and with individual jobs, more some than other though obviously). So coming form a place where the current state of this is the reality, imo baby steps is the best we are going to get. So I've focused on making the best out of what whm is right now. Admittedly there were a few things that I think could be added to that I didn't bring up, like giving a second stack of tetra and raising its potency to like 1000 (or making it generate a lily, was such a good idea from that video that was posted on the forum) and honestly, most of the changes mentioned in that video. Figuring out the best version(s) of whm possible is a whole other can of worms that could be its own entire thread and then some. Certainly something that is worth the discussion but I think focusing on just achieving walking first is the best idea before we even consider running.

[Allegor]

Even if WHM's numbers made it competitive, it brings nothing unique to the table and never has. Not since Heavensward. It doesn't stand out in any way.

WHM is not meant to be on par with the other healers, it's just the training wheels for new players, that just happens to also be good for when you want to turn your brain off but still get fast queues, and that's the hill I'll die on. I'm not saying it as if it were a good thing either, more like in a defeated tone...

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

WHM is not meant to be on par with the other healers, it's just the training wheels for new players, that just happens to also be good for when you want to turn your brain off but still get fast queues, and that's the hill I'll die on. I'm not saying it as if it were a good thing either, more like in a defeated tone...

Still, I wish they could've just make CNJ alone as their 'training wheels'-healer.

[Liam_Harper]

WHM is not meant to be on par with the other healers, it's just the training wheels for new players, that just happens to also be good for when you want to turn your brain off but still get fast queues, and that's the hill I'll die on. I'm not saying it as if it were a good thing either, more like in a defeated tone...

It's not training wheels.

Training wheels isn't having only Cure II spam and no mana recovery at low levels, while the others have Cure II equivalents, Kardia/Embrace, decent oGCD's and access mana recovery much earlier. It just feels like it, because it's basic, but in reality the other healers aren't that hard to learn and ease you into the toolkit at a reasonable pace. WHM barely has a toolkit. You're sent into wall pulls with least capability to handle them. It leans on Holy as a clutch so badly it's about to snap.

If WHM was training wheels it would have some sort of passive heal, a few oGCD's, lots of free mana and really strong GCD's so that healing was easy. Maybe a button on a low cooldown that turned shiny if a player was low and instantly did a big heal on them. That sort of thing.
It would either lose effectiveness at higher levels or be banned from EX/Savage entirely, like a sort of limited class. Because it's just for training wheels. (Not saying I want that though)

What we have now is a straight up trap. A weak, ineffective class that's also the worst healer to start with. But players believe it's the beginner healer because you start from lv1 and it doesn't have gimmicks.

[Silver-Strider]

WHM is not meant to be on par with the other healers, it's just the training wheels for new players, that just happens to also be good for when you want to turn your brain off but still get fast queues, and that's the hill I'll die on. I'm not saying it as if it were a good thing either, more like in a defeated tone...

By this logic, every role should have a job that is just arbitrarily worse than its counterparts because training wheels. Since that isn't the case, I call BS.