Dark Knight Megathread

[Archwizard]

It would also give a HoT that DRK so desperately needs without tying the HoT to TBN like people keep saying (Which would be the WORST place to place a HoT for reasons I have said before)

Out of curiosity, do you here a mean a HoT specifically, or just in the sense that, say, a HoT can provide more throughput than it'd actually typically be balanced for since it gives up some control/responsiveness? Is this more an interest in just getting gear-based sustain up there whatever way we can without throwing more barrier at BarrierBoy or getting too heavily taxed for on-demand heals (since we're not Warrior and therefore don't get a free pass)? I'd just like to hear why you think DRK desparately needs a HoT in particular (or why a HoT would uniquely meet DRK's needs).

I mean, potentially unpopular opinion, but I'd rather DRK didn't get a HoT.

That's not to say I hope DRK doesn't get some sustainable form of self-healing -- I'm a huge advocate of it being a leech tank like WAR (or usurping WAR for that position given their respective histories and aesthetics, not to mention DRK's long-standing precedent through Sole Survivor, AD and Tar Pit) -- and I'm well aware it's the only tank left without a HoT at this point.
But unless it's being slowly leeched from enemies (... I have some thoughts on Salted Earth now actually), I feel like a HoT simply isn't DRK's style or aesthetic, y'know? Especially not giving healing effects to other people, since that strays perhaps too closely to the aesthetic of the PLD that it exists in opposition to.

That being said, as far as "consume Dark Mind to improve Dark Missionary"... I will advise we tread lightly, since if we're arguing for any kind of buff to Dark Missionary, we have to keep in mind that it occupies the same niche as GNB's Heart of Light, much as Shake It Off and Divine Veil do with each other.
... Not to mention that there's the potential for DMind to be relegated to being saved exclusively for DMissionary to consume it for the boost. While that's not an issue for Shake It Off, the effects it consumes have individually strong use-cases and the benefit they give SIO is relatively small, unlike present DMind for a raidwide HoT (just look at RPR's HoT, which even at 50p is still fairly hefty, and for a tank to get value out of it you could expect stronger).

[Shurrikhan]

I mean, potentially unpopular opinion, but I'd rather DRK didn't get a HoT.

Same, honestly. Whether that come in the form of MP spenders, conditional interactions between other skills and MP spenders, Blood spenders, flexibly-timeable CDs, or whatever else, I'd still generally prefer something that feels a bit... sharper --more precisely timeable and immediately impactful-- than a HoT.

Agreed, also, in regard to any means of improving Dark Missionary, especially if such would follow the "not necessarily a punishment" (so long as you can make use of Vengeance or Thrill their duration's time before hitting Shake it Off) procedure that Shake it Off uses.

[Ryaduera]

Just to check, this is consuming Dark Mind (or some fixed version thereof) and/with/via Oblation? I should have asked earlier, but would this work like Shake it Off in the sense that optimizing the interaction involves waiting until the last possible moment to consume it, since the benefit for consumption wouldn't scale at all with the duration wasted? I like the idea of "offering up" an ability, so long as for whatever reason we keep Oblation in (as a name and theme), but its behavior would depend greatly upon how that consumption is rewarded / what factors are included.

Yeah I'm thinking working like Shake it Off in that regard, but this was a morning thought so it can always be improved on. Not sure what you mean by keeping Oblation? It would consume oblation but it would not replace it, you'd still have it. BUt this would be a new ability, not a replacement/upgrade to Oblation/TBN. This would technically give DRK the most unique mitigations, but all of their uniques (TBN aside) are pretty weak, so I think it would stay balanced, especially since a "consuming" ability would make it harder to stack mitigations anyway.

Out of curiosity, do you here a mean a HoT specifically, or just in the sense that, say, a HoT can provide more throughput than it'd actually typically be balanced for since it gives up some control/responsiveness? Is this more an interest in just getting gear-based sustain up there whatever way we can without throwing more barrier at BarrierBoy or getting too heavily taxed for on-demand heals (since we're not Warrior and therefore don't get a free pass)? I'd just like to hear why you think DRK desparately needs a HoT in particular (or why a HoT would uniquely meet DRK's needs).

And, yeah, HoT-after-TBN would have comically bad anti-synergy, agreed.

DRK with a Hot in my opinion would be a great boon. Heals are only good if used with intent and calculation, healing is the hardest form of tankiness to use (albeit still easy). Healing at full HP does literally nothing, we all know this. The idea is you're taking damage and taking damage, losing HP between barriers, then consume defensives to mitigate more for longer and heal that damage back up. 200 potency as a HoT is the same as Aurora and Aurora is not exactly making GNB broken in sustain. It would also relive at least some stress in TLD situations (better option being fix TLD but I've accepted that won't happen).

The idea here is that it would reduce damage by less that Dark Mind so that DM is still stronger vs magic damage, but also add usability to the skill in situations where it is not useful. 10% reduction is a good place to sit. PLD gets 20% reduced from their shield and then 15% from raw reduction with a hot, War gets reduction, healing, AND a shield (but that's an outlier, they're just stoo strong), GNB gets 15% with 15% and a fat heal, so I think it's only fair that DRK would be able to get 10% from this skill, get a HoT from it, cast Oblation after casting this ability to stack them and get 10% + 10% with a HoT. Since TBN exists the percentage being lower is fair in the context of tank busters. Sustainability in HoT form is most impactful in dungeons, where DRK suffers the most. I know you don't agree, but the fact is the majority do agree DRK needs help in dungeons.

Sorry, I read into your idea more of the earlier contexts regarding Dark Mind than I should have, I think? To be clear, would the above idea of consumption be primarily aimed at dealing with varying damage intake or more of just giving you another way to use Dark Mind for when there's no magic damage to mitigate (a bit alike to the earlier ideas in which Dark Artskresia could toggle Dark Mind to something anti-physical instead)?

Yes and no? Hard to word this... So basically Dark Mind keeps its usability it currently has and can optionally be used to fuel another defensive ability, but only if a heal is desired. Dark Mind is in fact very good when it is useful, the problem is the rarity in which it is used. DRK is not the magic-damage-tank it's just the tank-that-can't-take-physical-damage-well.

But unless it's being slowly leeched from enemies (... I have some thoughts on Salted Earth now actually), I feel like a HoT simply isn't DRK's style or aesthetic, y'know? Especially not giving healing effects to other people, since that strays perhaps too closely to the aesthetic of the PLD that it exists in opposition to.

I strongly disagree because of the lore of Dark Knight in this particular version. The abyss empowers you to push on, the abyss is keeping your body alive, the abyss needs you alive to express its fury, and so the darkness within you empowers you to push on. If you want a tank that gets power from slaying, that's Warrior, the Dark Knight gets power by embracing the abyss within them. Their powers come from the inside, not the outside. DRK in lore is very similar to a PLD, always has been, but always the other side of the spectrum. PLD was the light, and the DRK was the shadow it cast.

Also to be clear, this would be a self-cast ability only.

That being said, as far as "consume Dark Mind to improve Dark Missionary"... I will advise we tread lightly, since if we're arguing for any kind of buff to Dark Missionary, we have to keep in mind that it occupies the same niche as GNB's Heart of Light, much as Shake It Off and Divine Veil do with each other.

GNB and DRK should not have identical party mitigations. Period. I don't care which one gets what, but the fact that they are literally the same thing infuriates me to no end, especially since DRK gets it so much later. They should be different. For this reason I hate both, even though they are a good ability.

EDIT: Again, this was a morning-coffee thought so I see now it may be read as a replacement for Dark Missionary. I am not against that idea but I'd go back to the drawing board for that. I can see how it would be interpreted like this from what I said.

[Shurrikhan]

Not sure what you mean by "keeping Oblation"?

As in keeping within the kit some effect that's thematically tied to the idea of Oblation (an offering) and would therefore fit its name.

As others have pointed out before, Oblation could as easily go and be replaced entirely; if we're already making significant revisions to the kit, there's no hard rule that there must be a skill named Oblation in what results.

It would consume oblation but it would not replace it, you'd still have it.

So, I'm now a bit more confused. What is the triggering action for Dark Mind's consumption? I thought the idea was that when you hit Oblation, Dark Mind is consumed but Oblation stays. You're saying here that they're both consumed? Just Oblation? Or is it a totally separate action that then consumes Oblation?

How does one consume an effect but still have it?

I'd give my two cents on the result, but I'd prefer clarification on this first before I walk myself into a butcher's yard again over an ambiguity (or, my poor comprehension).

[Ryaduera]

As in keeping within the kit some effect that's thematically tied to the idea of Oblation (an offering) and would therefore fit its name.

As others have pointed out before, Oblation could as easily go and be replaced entirely; if we're already making significant revisions to the kit, there's no hard rule that there must be a skill named Oblation in what results.


So, I'm now a bit more confused. What is the triggering action for Dark Mind's consumption? I thought the idea was that when you hit Oblation, Dark Mind is consumed but Oblation stays. You're saying here that they're both consumed? Just Oblation? Or is it a totally separate action that then consumes Oblation?

How does one consume an effect but still have it?

I'd give my two cents on the result, but I'd prefer clarification on this first before I walk myself into a butcher's yard again over an ambiguity (or, my poor comprehension).

It would be a new skill entirely, it would not be Oblation. You could use one stack of Oblation, consume it with this hypothetical mitigation, then use your second stack if it was necessary. Let's call this hypothetical ability Occult Acumen (FFXI reference) for clarity sake. This would give DRK the most personal mitigations but (TBN aside) with all of them being pretty weak, I think it's a matter of trading out strength for duration and requiring stacking them since smaller percentages have smaller diminishing returns. So you'd be able to consume Dark Mind and Oblation, with more consumed abilities making the healing effect stronger, with no heal at all if nothing is consumed.

[Shurrikhan]

It would be a new skill entirely, it would not be Oblation. You could use one stack of Oblation, consume it with this hypothetical mitigation, then use your second stack if it was necessary. Let's call this hypothetical ability Occult Acumen (FFXI reference) for clarity sake. This would give DRK the most personal mitigations but (TBN aside) with all of them being pretty weak, I think it's a matter of trading out strength for duration and requiring stacking them since smaller percentages have smaller diminishing returns. So you'd be able to consume Dark Mind and Oblation, with more consumed abilities making the healing effect stronger, with no heal at all if nothing is consumed.

Understood. Thank you.

So, this new skill, Occult Accumen would have effectively no use outside of consuming other skills? Little to no cooldown, either?

Again, though, I'm still worried about how it'd treat duration. If this were to work like Shake it Off, for instance, we'd sacrifice only the final half-second of duration for an effectively free HoT, in which case players would be right to wonder "Why not just make OA like Aurora or its HoT a trait attached to DM/Oblation if the difference from such is already just an annoying but small skill-/weave-check?"

[Ryaduera]

Understood. Thank you.

So, this new skill, Occult Accumen would have effectively no use outside of consuming other skills? Little to no cooldown, either?

Again, though, I'm still worried about how it'd treat duration. If this were to work like Shake it Off, for instance, we'd sacrifice only the final half-second of duration for an effectively free HoT, in which case players would be right to wonder "Why not just make OA like Aurora or its HoT a trait attached to DM/Oblation if the difference from such is already just an annoying but small skill-/weave-check?"

I think something like this would have a relatively longer cooldown, no? Duration and cooldown are hard for us non-devs to actually balance. I know from my modding experiences, even if we think we can balance those, trial and error is the only way to truly know if it's "fair" but if I were modding this game, I'd start with a longer cooldown. Something around 90 seconds. It could have an additional "only available under the effects of x" to make it more understandable why it's a consuming ability and not just some trait. You can only turn Oblation/Dark Mind into a HoT every 90 seconds makes it more understandable why it's not just a trait so the heal isn't coming every 30s from Oblation (recharge ability cooldowns are recharge time divided by charge count, so 30s cooldown on Oblation in "perfect" rotation)

Again, just a morning coffee idea that's probably a waste of energy to actually think about lol.

[Archwizard]

I strongly disagree because of the lore of Dark Knight in this particular version. The abyss empowers you to push on, the abyss is keeping your body alive, the abyss needs you alive to express its fury, and so the darkness within you empowers you to push on. If you want a tank that gets power from slaying, that's Warrior, the Dark Knight gets power by embracing the abyss within them.

Definitely a place of wildly different interpretations.

As I see it, DRK is a job that is first and foremost about the principles of vindication, pragmatism, and paying evil unto evil, all while willfully setting aside their conniptions about "dishonor" or "scarring their soul" for the power to accomplish this task. This (combined with its history) puts it into a position of such profane acts as fortifying itself with the blood and life force of its foes -- as you say, pushing on through embracing the abyss.
I mean hell, one of its signature skills is Abyssal Drain, just a shame about how far it's fallen.
It's not just about the source of the magic, but the depths you would willingly plunge to both for and with it. As you tell Sidurgu, "So long as innocents suffer, I will not forsake the abyss."

Meanwhile, WAR's style of tanking is about persistence and shrugging off hits due to a mix of the Inner Beast suppressing their ability to feel pain, and battlefield adrenaline.
I see its shift into being the "drain tank" more as just an evolution of the popularity of using Nascent Flash over Raw Intuition. And it getting Nascent Flash in the first place as a copout to not really knowing how to have WAR be the offtank by this interpretation, given "pain suppression and adrenaline" are all-natural and hard to stretch beyond what is self-serving, where at least the other three tanks have some magic for flexibility in this dimension.

[Archwizard]

GNB and DRK should not have identical party mitigations. Period. I don't care which one gets what, but the fact that they are literally the same thing infuriates me to no end, especially since DRK gets it so much later. They should be different. For this reason I hate both, even though they are a good ability.

Thinking about it now... if PLD lost Divine Veil and went all in on Passage of Arms as its partywide defense, then that would show a push for each tank to get a unique partywide and make room for one of GNB or DRK to replace Dark Missionary or Heart of Light, respectively.

DRK's got some potential, I think, for a PoA-like ability where they plant their sword, kneel behind it and channel an area of defense around themselves. As you say, DRK is the shadow cast by PLD, so it would make sense.
The question then being "what exactly would it do differently." With the big push for DRK as an anti-magic tank, Dark Missionary is already the logical partywide for it; I just find GNB a bit too... thematically vague to come up with an alternative for it, while DRK has untapped potential from the abyss.

[Undeadfire]

With the big push for DRK as an anti-magic tank, Dark Missionary is already the logical partywide for it;

They tried this in Heavensward, it's terrible balancing and causes problems with tanks pick rate for clears. Paladin couldn't mitigate most of the savage raid bosses, while Drk can netflix chill it.

Yoshida wants all jobs to reliably clear all content, and I'm sure people don't want to be driven out because job sucks. I am aware of the Endwalker problems and honestly, I have no clue what they're doing at the moment.