Dark Knight Megathread

[RatCopter]

I was running P3 just now to grab a helmet while I wait for my static to show up, and I had the good ol' "use Living Dead in a scenario where it was needed, healers don't notice until 4s left, get healed to 98% and die" meme, and this is the first time I've actually been mad about it.

I just want an invuln that doesn't punish everyone involved in it. I get punished because I used it and I can contribute absolutely fucking nothing to the threshold. Healers get punished because they dumped resources into me but just not enough. DPS gets punished because they start getting slapped by autos because I died.
Fucking hell man, I'm gonna have to prog on WAR, I'm so sick to death of this shit.

[Ultaniku]

Someone else said this before and it kind of translates to how I feel in regard to DRK. In full party content I feel amazing and strong. In light party content I don’t feel like my defensives alone can keep me going compared to the other tanks. I feel like even using my defensive rotation of cooldowns I still heavily have to rely on healer upkeep and dps taking down the trash packs quickly. If my cooldowns are gone then I don’t have much of anything to sustain me myself. This does mostly pertain to w2w trash packs in what I’m referencing.

[Shurrikhan]

honestly i'm glad nothing changed. potency-wise at least.
but the invuln bug being fixed is good..

It's nice to again only have the worst invuln instead of the worst invuln that also only works at all four-fifths of the time.

...What have we been reduced to?!

My thinking is this may be the first opportunity in a long while where LD's actually being seriously examined, considering that the damage output this expansion (meant to take advantage of the new "active" mitigation style of timing a block in the first few seconds) means TBN itself isn't able to do the job of three other mitigation skills on its own anymore like it has been since its introduction, so people are actually seeing LD's deficit outside of raids.

Hopefully so, but the haphazard slapping of a 10s duration onto any and every invuln (except, in practice, Living Dead) doesn't bode well for that. It increases the need to fix LD, but doesn't indicate a mind for it.

So if I may ask, aside from the fact that AD is part of the DRK's sustain, why is the cry more for separating C&S from AD instead of having C&S also heal, since AD for its part at least restores MP?

Because more obligatory oGCDs to press is good, even if they're not individually satisfying outside of their intended target counts? ???

I don't know. I'd prefer just slapping a 600-potency heal (equivalent to 3 hits of AD) onto C&S.

The first step I would say is to try to identify elements that would likely reinforce such a negative perception.

One big thing that I can think of is to have the initial ability in the two-step combination have no tangible effect by itself, it is solely there to empower the second ability. This lack of positive feedback on the initial part of the combo makes it feel in the moment rather extraneous and places all the emphasis on the second ability, the "empowered" one. The extraneous feel of the initial button press can lead to it feeling "clunky" and the extra emphasis on the "empowered" ability makes the divide between it and the normal version more discernible.
The potential solution to this that I used was to have the initial action of the two-step combo actually be the one that people would normally think of as the "empowered" ability, essentially flipping the order and guaranteeing that the initial action has an immediate and tangible positive effect since whatever mitigation it would normally provide is still exactly what it provides. Arranging it in this way also puts less emphasis on it feeling like the "empowered" ability since it basically stays the same, which in turn lessens the divide felt between the normal version and the comboed version of the ability, and instead puts more emphasis on the second ability in the combo as being the "empowered" one.

That was why I generally preferred a "Dark Passenger" follow-up ability approach (likewise a dynamic oGCD) over a "Dark Arts" power-up approach. A rushed cast isn't therefore punished and they each feel like abilities in their own right, such that you feel like you have a larger arsenal with minimal button-bloat rather than your skills taking an extra oGCD to get their value.

As for the Oblation idea itself, I'm still very much on the fence. For the most part, I like how Oblation works with, or as complement to, TBN already -- or, I would if Oblation was just a bit shorter but more potent. I'll agree that Oblation fits TBN's animation to a tee, almost as if binding TBN up and locking it in (certainly a decent visual excuse for, say, extending its duration if we wanted one, but removing TBN's risk, very much a core mechanic, twice per 2 minutes might not ultimately be the best design, even if most DRKs would love it at first). But, I'd I doubt I'd like it if it felt that I can only really use Oblation with TBN as not for Oblation to feel wasteful, let alone only at the most specific of moments along TBN's shield lifetime.

Moreover, getting even an extra 20% HP on atop an already 25% HP shield seems... exceedingly powerful unless they truly cannot stack (i.e., the first must be mostly drained before overriding it with Oblation's shield -- again, likely to seem finnicky), but even that would just end up more awkward to track without offering any added eHP against an immediately upcoming single strike (at least, without wasting TBN entirely, assuming Oblation's shield were the larger), in which case the single shield and a bankable healing tool would have been a cleaner option anyways. Hmm.

[crystalcat]

Going off the first post and putting in my own two cents...

1. What issue with Dark Knight do you have since 5.0?

Dark Knight is, currently, a reskin of Warrior. It may not have all the same actions and the same 'flow', but the general mechanics -- 'keep up 10% damage buff, build gauge, spend gauge, occasionally enter a buffed state where gauge attacks are free' is identical to Warrior. I want all four tanks to have their own unique mechanics and identity, and currently DRK is just WAR in a different set of clothes and carrying a few different tools. Same core -- I've actually resorted to leveling Warrior instead, for its monstrous self-healing and self-sufficiency. Which brings up a second issue; Dark Knight has the worst sustain and mitigation of all tanks. The Blackest Night was powerful for Stormblood and Shadowbringers, but now that the other tanks have gained a similar-power skill in Endwalker, Dark Knight's flaws mitigation-wise have been exposed. Speaking as a healer main (AST and SGE), Dark Knight is extremely hard to heal compared to all the other tanks; they routinely drop lower than other tanks and simply cannot be brought back up from Living Dead, at least on SGE, when they have to pop it.

2. Is there a viable solution to your problem? If so, write it down.

I believe Dark Knight needs a full rework, 6.0 Summoner style. Bring back Dark Arts, make it into a more 'involved' tank like Heavensward/Stormblood Dark Knight (which I never played, but which was apparently wonderful).

I have concepts for a DRK rework which I'll put in a separate post given that including them blew past the character limit.

Honestly, just give DRK core mechanics that aren't a reskin of WAR's "keep up 10% buff, gain gauge, spend gauge, have gauge supermode' mechanics. Give it HW/SB-era Dark Arts, give it *something* interesting and unique.

3. What did you like about previous iterations of Dark Knight?

I never played HW/SB Dark Knight (got into the game during the tail end of Shadowbringers) but I love the concept of those iterations, especially Dark Arts and the cool animations that seem to mostly be cut now, sadly. Eukrasia is proof they can do *something* with the Dark Arts concept. Give it back to DRK. I would also love for some of the cut animations to be added back -- perhaps swap Syphon Strike's animation to Spinning Slash / Delirium, Souleater's animation to Scourge / Power Slash? The current animations feel too 'floaty' and not weighty enough.

4. How did DRK capture your interest while playing FFXIV?

I love the concept of a tank that weaves magic into its tanking -- Dark Knight is basically that. Plus, the job storyline is amazing. However, the job as it stands is simply lacking gameplay-wise compared it its three companion tanks, which is sad as I love the flavor and the class fantasy.

[crystalcat]

Separate post because character limits.

To the staff of FFXIV (assuming they read this), I hereby disclaim any and all creative right to the ideas I set out below -- use them as you see fit. (Overkill perhaps, but I play MTG, and the designers of that can't even look at player designs.)

My concepts for a DRK rework or change, using current assets and animations:

Turn Dark Arts into a Eukrasia-style 'activate it and certain skills change to other skills' thing, costing perhaps 2000 MP, in place of Edge and Flood of Shadow's MP cost. Use the current Darkside icon for Dark Arts: the 'un-Darkside' for no Dark Arts up, the 'active Darkside' for Dark Arts up.

Candidates for a Eukrasia-style 'upgrade' in current DRK would be Hard Slash and Unleash transforming into Edge of Shadow and Flood of Shadow respectively (with no 10% damage buff anymore, just a potency increase), Syphon Strike and Souleater (upgrade in potency and animation change, using one of the 'cut' animations from the other DRK combos), etc.

In terms of cut abilities' animations, perhaps Syphon Strike might become Delirium or Spinning Strike, Souleater become Power Slash or Scourge.

Cut Delirium as it stands -- the 'temporary super mode' feels far too close to WAR. Find some replacement. Perhaps either cut Blood Gauge entirely or make it 'fills when receiving damage', to make it feel properly Dark Knight-like and fit with the flavor expressed in the class's opening quest ('blood shroud').

In this 'Dark Arts' rework idea, The Blackest Night becomes either a Dark Arts upgrade to a mitigation tool or just a non-mana-linked, but longer-cooldown, skill. Actually, a concept; give DRK a short-cooldown mitigation tool like Raw Intuition, and The Blackest Night can be a Dark Arts upgrade of that -- which then also means it can get upgraded at 82 like the other short-cooldowns.

The general core of this rework idea is to give Dark Knight a mechanic to itself that's not just a rework of Warrior's mechanics -- interpret with that in mind.

General changes:

More self-sustain. More self-sustain. More self-sustain. Dark Knight should be all about draining the health of enemies and using it to fuel yourself; lean into that one hard. Where WAR heals itself with things like Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle because it's too angry to die, DRK should heal itself by drawing the vitality from enemies. Raw Intuition / Bloodwhetting is exactly the style of effect DRK should have. Maybe an oGCD that makes the next attack lifesteal, or giving Blood Weapon lifesteal.

Change Blood Weapon to a charge-based system instead of a time-based system, like Berserk was changed in Endwalker.

Fix. Living. Dead. It is the most terrible 'invuln' ability to ever exist. The only time a Dark Knight pops it is when they're anticipating imminent death, and they will likely die anyway from the healer being unable to heal them -- unless they're with a WHM who keeps Benediction earmarked for Living Dead.

[Baxcel]

----

I was actually just thinking something simular on my way to work with the Dark Arts = Eskurian thing.

But not having the MP on Dark Arts but the skills themselves..

Keep the 1 2 3 with DA Hard slash changing into a dot.. Scourge.
Add HP regain on Syphone Strike when on DA
Add additional HP on Soul Eater w/ DA
Unleash DA adds a group DoT
Stalwart Soul DA adds a bloody explosion on enemies with dot but also removes dot from enemies with a short immunity.

Keep the flood an edge the same with MP costs but DA Flood is Dark Passanger/Shadowbringer and Edge upgrades to Power Slash adding a timer that gives blood to DRK as it ticks

Unmend DA upgrades to Abysal Drain, no cooldown for use

Living Shadow maybe gets two forms? Without DA it stays as normal an with DA it becomes controllable like Reaper fusing with the voidsent an copying your moves or just impowering.

As much as I currently hate the WAR copy on bloodsplitter I don't have much of an idea currently or the time to think of one during this post..

[Shurrikhan]

It really just feels like you angrily agreed with some of my points and tried to say I was wrong about things that I didn't even refute... The only thing I really refuted was that healing is in fact a form of mitigation, because it is whether you want to believe it or not. Especially since every single tank heal can or is automatically applied after damage is taken.

I refuted only four points, on which in no case did I agree with you:

1. That "healing is a form of damage mitigation." It's not. In the same sense that healing isn't a shield, and Sprint is not normal movement speed. Yes, a shield may do no more than healing when there is no context by which to get to its unique advantages, just as bonus movement speed may do no more than normal movement when you would have dodged anyways or still would not have lost uptime, but they are not literally the same thing.
   
   
   
2. That having one's gear scale partly from content, instead of one's gear, is inherently better or, as you put it, has...
   
   

   All of the benefits with none of the drawbacks.
   It doesn't. Having a bit of column A (gear-scaling) and a bit of column B (content-scaling) does not give you "all of the benefits" of each, or even of either one. It's merely proportional.
   
   
   
3. That the existence of SGE/SCH shields somehow reduces the value of TBN. It doesn't. They stack. Having multiple forms of mitigation of the same type does not reduce their efficiency.
   
   I mentioned this only because you brought up their being "redundant" as if that were a matter unique to barriers and TBN that HoC and HS were stronger for having avoided.
   
   
   
4. That percentile mitigation scales with gear just because some other part of the same ability does. It doesn't. It trims a portion of damage you take over a given duration. That is not literally the same thing as increasing the efficiency of all healing taken, since that healing is not bound to that duration. As you said, percentile mitigation doesn't scale with gear if the "mitigation... doesn't provide damage reduction after the fact," and no mitigation provides damage reduction after its duration has elapsed.
   
   For percentile mitigation to fully scale with gear, the healing must be entirely your own and must be both generated and consumed over the duration. Otherwise, they do not have the same frame of reference.

[Ryaduera]

I refuted only four points, on which in no case did I agree with you:
[LIST="1"]That healing is mitigation. It's not. In the same sense that healing isn't a shield, and Sprint is not normal movement speed. Yes, a shield may do no more than healing when there is no context by which to get to its unique advantages, just as bonus movement speed may do no more than normal movement when you would have dodged anyways or still would not have lost uptime, but they are not literally the same thing.

Whether or not you want to believe healing is a form of mitigation in the context in which tanks are using it does not change the fact that it absolutely is. It is and that's enough. It was also never said that they were the same thing. I am genuinely lost on where you think I said that. I specifically called them different and acknowledged there are hypothetical cases where the shield is more important, but the other point I made is that this moment literally doesn't exist. You,re right, they aren't the same thing, I never said they were, just that they have similar effects. Damage mitigated is how much damage you have after all incoming damage has happened. That's why heals factor in. Not all heals, mind you. Clemency is not mitigation, but Aurora is, for example. Brutal Shell is hardly mitigation since it's an offensive tool, just like Souleater isn't mitigation because the HP from both happens without the HP/shield being the intention. There's a clear distinction between health based mitigation (aka drain tanking) and post-damage healing, there has to be or healer wouldn't even be a role.

[*]That having one's gear scale partly from content, instead of one's gear, is inherently better or, as you put it, has...

It doesn't. Having a bit of column A (gear-scaling) and a bit of column B (content-scaling) does not give you "all of the benefits" of each, or even of either one. It's merely proportional.

It's proportional with no drawbacks IE you don't use your DPS resource on it, even if you do get it back that's still bad design in a game where DPS is the only thing they look at. That's what it means to have every benefit with no draw back, except maybe for other tanks delaying an oGCD to weave in the defensive cooldown, but that's just conjecture.

[*]That the existence of SGE/SCH shields somehow reduces the value of TBN. It doesn't. They stack. Having multiple forms of mitigation of the same type does not reduce their efficiency.

I mentioned this only because you brought up their being "redundant" as if that were unique to barriers and TBN that HoC and HS were stronger for having avoided.

I said it was redundant and you put words in my mouth claiming I said it was bad, which I never did because I would never think TBN was bad, it's just not as good as it was. The only scenario in which TNB is "better" is one that doesn't exist in the game save for saving DPS/healers and having too many vuln stacks. It's a useful tool but saying it's the best in a scenario like this is, again, conjecture.

[*]That percentile mitigation scales with gear just because some other part of the same ability does. It doesn't. It trims a portion of damage you take over a given duration. That is not literally the same thing as increasing the efficiency of all healing taken, since that healing is not bound to that duration. As you said, percentile mitigation doesn't scale with gear if the "mitigation... doesn't provide damage reduction after the fact," and no mitigation provides damage reduction after its duration has elapsed.

For percentile mitigation to fully scale with gear, the healing must be entirely your own and must be both generated and consumed over the duration. Otherwise, they do not have the same frame of reference.

I don't get it. Where do you think I'm saying anything about percentage mitigations scaling off of gear? We both know, and I have said multiple times already, the percentage does not scale off of gear. You are angrily agreeing with me on that point. Only the heal scales off of gear, try lowering your ilvl and removing melds and then using HoC. You have stats that inherently increase it and this is something I have first hand experience with, seeing it go up and up and up with every piece of gear I replace, particularly with Determination and Tenacity that both increase heals and is found on tank gear. I don't understand why you think I think something so blatantly wrong. You're literally being mad that I agreed with you on that fact, because percentages don't change with gear, stop it. I didn't even call TBN bad, it's just not the best anymore and no longer justification for the Dark Knight to lack in every other category of mitigation other than one decent shield and a gimmicky magic damage reduction and party mitigation that either another tank has or is inferior to the rest of the tanks. I even admitted the weakness of this skill and how the HP gained works so I don't see why you need to angrily interject just to agree with that exact point.. Skills like TBN/HoC/Intervention should have downsides because they are just tools that don't (if used properly for TBN's case) interfere with your main rotations. The downside of TBN is just glaringly large, and that's a problem, since the downside should be proportionate to the benefit, and considering the benefit is usually less than the other tank skills, that's pretty bad. The downside of HoC? You aren't necessarily still taking damage every time after the heal takes effect. Not a very bad downside for such a good mitigation tool.

[Shurrikhan]

Forgot about early Flood. Yeah, drop Abyssal potency to 100-120 if it's spammable.

Oblation HoT gives us effective single-target sustain, tied to our lvl 82 skill like other tanks. Other tanks have it tied to their TBN equivalent, so why shouldn't ours? If TBN isn't going to break, we probably don't need the heal anyway.

Makes sense. My only hang-up is that Oblation doesn't presently have to be used together with TBN, nor saved for TBN (due to having two charges). That's a unique advantage I'd rather hold onto. The two charges would still mitigate the impact of that a bit, but a lot of the time you'll use Oblation over the 10 seconds before swapping out on a buster, in which case, raid heals would soon have taken care of the rest anyhow (whereas something like Nascent can also put that healing where it's useful, such as the swapped-in tank's damage taken from auto-attacks).

I guess it's mostly going to come down to balancing. If we're balanced under the expectation that the self-heal may be partly wasted, then that's fine. If we're not losing something to get it, and it doesn't make us OP, sure, totally fine. (And with WAR getting no nerfs despite still outDPSing PLD atop all that excess healing, we probably would be.) If we're balanced around actually milking it, though --as arguably PLD was around Intervention swap-outs (maxing damage absorbed by Sentinel and Rampart before feeding half their effects each to the cotank as they swap in-- then... ehhh, I'd kind of rather not.

(Also, I liked using Flood on 2 targets. I want to use Flood on 2 targets. Please revert Flood nerf.)

Agreed. Without bonus at two-targets, gauge alternatives quickly feel like bloat outside of dungeons.

________________

@Ryaduera:

Whether or not you want to believe healing is a form of mitigation in the context in which tanks are using it does not change the fact that it absolutely is, but clearly logic and common sense won't convince you so I want continue to try. It is and that's enough. It was also never said that they were the same thing. I am genuinely lost on where you think I said that. I specifically called them different and acknowledged there are hypothetical cases where the shield is more important, but the other point I made is that this moment literally doesn't exist. You,re right, they aren't the same thing, I never said they were, just that they have similar effects. Damage mitigated is how much damage you have after all incoming damage has happened. That's why heals factor in.

You may as well say that blue and red are the same in the context that they're mixed together.

A thing with an added function is not the same as another without it. They may, in most cases, amount to the same thing, but they are not literally the same.

It's proportional with no drawbacks IE you don't use your DPS resource on it, even if you do get it back that's still bad design in a game where DPS is the only thing they look at.

Ahhh, okay. I see what you mean. Since you replied to a quote discussing scaling, I thought the drawbacks you were talking about were likewise a matter of scaling. I still disagree that all other short-CD mitigation has "all of the benefit" of TBN.

The only scenario in which TNB is "better" is one that doesn't exist in the game save for saving DPS/healers and having too many vuln stacks. It's a useful tool but saying it's the best in a scenario like this is, again, conjecture.

Literally just an hour ago played the Dorito for a clear party and saved the healers a total of 4 times (dps another, so 5 together) in a single pull when they weren't in place for the spin mechanics which would otherwise have one-shot them. The latter situation does exist.

I don't get it. Where do you think I'm saying anything about percentage mitigations scaling off of gear?

This was based on the earlier misunderstanding. Having responded to a quote about gear-scaling, I assumed the downside you were discussing was related to gear-scaling. Admittedly, I got a little confused, also, in your bit about incoming "damage also scaales with ilvl so the porpotion of damage generally stays the same anyway. But heals from those abilities do" since both comprise only a small part of the larger picture and are obviously not unique to the other short-CD defensives (DRK's Defense stat likewise increases, as do its self-heals).

_____________________

Let's be clear here. To mitigate means "to lessen or reduce". You cannot not lessen or reduce things that has already hit you. You recover from them.

There is no such thing as "post-damage mitigation." The closest you get to that (i.e., to reduce or lessen damage taken after you've already taken it) is for you to (1) increase max eHP and then later (2) restore a portion of damage taken, in which case you really have two effects (as usually shown by two distinct buffs), one which increases your maximum eHP for a duration [mitigation] (perhaps infinitely, as per invulns) and another than then heals you after the fact [healing]. Even the likes of Purifying Brew, by which to purge DoT damage to be taken (based on a portion of direct damage that was delayed, instead being dealt over time), must still be done prior to that DoT damage taken. Meanwhile, the likes of "heal for 30% of damage taken in the last 4 seconds" is just content-scaled healing.

That's how "reactive" tanks work; they increase their eHP, typically without increasing the effective value of each point of health, and then self-heal the difference. But that does not turn healing into damage reduction. If they did not have access to maximum eHP (be it by passive or active means) greater the passive values of other tanks, they'd be unplayable outside of casual content in most MMOs (i.e., any that actually expects tanks to, idk, use their defensives for more than just the occasional healer GCD saved).

There is no "I unmake your having hit me in the face by parrying your strike afterwards." There is mitigation (literally "(damage) reduction") and there is healing. That's it.

If this is a situation of "by 'can't' I really meant 'can'; language is flexible," then... okay, but... there's otherwise no sense to your position outside of having overgeared content so greatly that the tank needs not pop a single defensive ability over the whole fight, which is not a condition you want to design tanks around. (Vengeance? Thrill of Battle? Rampart? The mitigation component of Raw Intuition? Nah, don't need them. Nothing can kill you anyways now that you overgear this tier, so let's just focus on you healing yourself back up afterwards. Not like there's a next tier.)