Dark Knight Megathread

[Shurrikhan]

The main issue to me is that if AD is made spammable, rather than a CD, there's always going to be a degree of redundancy with either Flood AND TBN (Flood being virtually never worth using as a spender since it'd have no attached sustain and TBN never worth using above a certain enemy count) or the AoE combo (such that your AoE GCDs are effectively locked out any time a healer wants to treat you as a non-DRK).

I do agree that suggesting AD cost a significant portion of MP on top of being a cooldown does seem excessive, especially if it doesn't benefit from Dark Arts like DRK's other MP consuming oGCDs.

If this refers to my earlier suggestion, such simply increased AD by both Flood's cost and damage so that it wouldn't feel like a wet noodle but also wouldn't change DRK's AoE DPS.

If you're referring instead to Stormblood's sizeable MP cost for a DA-AD, it's worth noting that back then TBN could effectively more than refund itself in AoE via Blood Weapon -> Quietus, as TBN would give 50 Blood on pop rather than, effectively, refunding its MP cost. Its cross-resource economy at the time favored AoE.

If it was a spammable GCD skill, sure, it could cost MP like a dark version of PLD's Holy Circle -- though I can understand why the devs chose to shrink DRK's pool of MP consuming skills to simplify the playstyle and focus on Flood/Edge, especially if it forced a choice between greedy damage and tanking tools. (Something TBN notably does not to, as it gives both when used properly.) Especially since DRK doesn't have a response to Requiescat to eliminate MP costs, just CDs to increase MP refunds.

But if it's going to be a CD, then making it the biggest MP spender is a step too far... and not even really necessary. Especially since it kills the potential for things like reducing its CD or gaining charges via traits on other actions, as the MP cost would maintain a limit on its uses a la TBN.

AD hasn't been the largest MP spender since Stormblood (as AD had a base cost atop DA), and that's not being suggested here. 3k MP is the standard, single MP cost at this point. Again, such merely allows AD a bit more oomph while faintly decreasing DRK's burst APM (since you'd otherwise have to fit an extra action into each 2-minute burst window) by adding Edge's power and cost into Carve & Spit and Flood's power and cost into Abyssal Drain.

[Archwizard]

AD hasn't been the largest MP spender since Stormblood (as AD had a base cost atop DA), and that's not being suggested here. 3k MP is the standard, single MP cost at this point. Again, such merely allows AD a bit more oomph while faintly decreasing DRK's burst APM (since you'd otherwise have to fit an extra action into each 2-minute burst window) by adding Edge's power and cost into Carve & Spit and Flood's power and cost into Abyssal Drain.

Ah, sorry, I got confused remembering one of your earlier reworks where you reduced the costs of Flood and Edge.
Though arguably it would still be a big spender, given that DA at least makes TBN split its cost with Flood/Edge, and I didn't see anything about AD being applicable for DA.

[Shurrikhan]

Ah, sorry, I got confused remembering one of your earlier reworks where you reduced the costs of Flood and Edge.
Though arguably it would still be a big spender, given that DA at least makes TBN split its cost with Flood/Edge, and I didn't see anything about AD being applicable for DA.

Reduced? I had a revision where I increased both Edge/Flood's costs (to 4k) and our MP generation as to make it so we'd have less banking potential, thereby reducing the difference between our bursts and lulls (arguably slightly reining in the damage we offer a meta party --though not technically our rDPS since the damage difference would have been attributed to those buffing us anyways, which is a story for another time), but I don't think I ever reduced it?

Could have, though; I'm clearly going senile.

Though arguably it would still be a big spender, given that DA at least makes TBN split its cost with Flood/Edge, and I didn't see anything about AD being applicable for DA.

If I'd spent more time on that spitball, I would of included it, but yeah, it totally slipped my mind back then.

I should have added to the section on C&S and AD that it could be made free by DA, yeah.

EDIT: Alright, added that clause into the suggestion quick-list. Many thanks.

[RyuDragnier]

A balancing factor you could do for AD is remove the cooldown, make it an oGCD costing 3000 MP with a quick recharge like Flood/Edge. In return however, it also eats 20s off of Darkside, meaning overuse will cause you to lose your damage.

[YukikoKurosawa]

I think one of the most egregious things is how our new lvl 90 ability is just a reskin of an ability we already have. Shadowbringer is functionally the same, looks virtually the same, sounds virtually the same, but just does more damage and doesn't cost MP. Why not have it be an upgraded version of Flood of Shadow, and give us something actually unique for our 90 ability?

[Shurrikhan]

I think one of the most egregious things is how our new lvl 90 ability is just a reskin of an ability we already have. Shadowbringer is functionally the same, looks virtually the same, sounds virtually the same, but just does more damage and doesn't cost MP. Why not have it be an upgraded version of Flood of Shadow, and give us something actually unique for our 90 ability?

...How would that be any better, though? I'd be fine with seeing it cost 3k MP and deal a Flood's more damage, but you're effectively just asking for one fewer ability to use, one fewer CD to track (however casually/passively).

Insofar as consolidation goes, the more obvious choices seems Blood Weapon <> Delirium, unless they want to make Blood Weapon an actual mechanic instead of a finnicky generator of at best one Blood and one MP spender each.

That said, what did you have in mind for something that might replace it?

[YukikoKurosawa]

...How would that be any better, though? I'd be fine with seeing it cost 3k MP and deal a Flood's more damage, but you're effectively just asking for one fewer ability to use, one fewer CD to track (however casually/passively).

Insofar as consolidation goes, the more obvious choices seems Blood Weapon <> Delirium, unless they want to make Blood Weapon an actual mechanic instead of a finnicky generator of at best one Blood and one MP spender each.

That said, what did you have in mind for something that might replace it?

No? I'm asking for more unique abilities to use, keyword being unique. Shadowbringer is just Flood of Shadow. Full stop. It's the same ability, just slightly reskined, and not costing MP. There is zero reason it should not be anything but a replacement to Flood of Shadow. As for what I'd replace it with? I don't know, I'm not the one designing abilities. Something actually unique, animation wise, sound wise, and functionality-wise. Look at what PLD's got. Cleasrly they ran out of ideas for DRK this expansion and just gave us dark bubbles.

[Shurrikhan]

No? I'm asking for more unique abilities to use, keyword being unique. Shadowbringer is just Flood of Shadow. Full stop. It's the same ability, just slightly reskined, and not costing MP.

The fact that it is stronger, on a CD, and costs no MP already makes it as different an ability as Carve is from Edge, Senei is from Shinten, etc., etc.

Look at what PLD's got.

By your logic above, Paladin merely got a small damage bonus and 50% AoE on one Goring Blade combo per minute.

Yes, Shadowbringer's aesthetic is uninspired, but let's not exaggerate. It is roughly just as distinct from Flood as Carve is from Edge and Blade of Faith/Truth/Valor is from Fast/Riot/Goring.

As for what I'd replace it with? I don't know, I'm not the one designing abilities.

Given that this entire Megathread exists in large part because we think Dark Knight has, at the least since mid-2021, shown insufficient design direction, this isn't exactly the place to forgo on principle all opinion as to what ought replace what we have, lest we end up with yet another Monkey's Paw outcome when removing what we dislike.

Something actually unique, animation wise, sound wise, and functionality-wise.

Are there any more specific avenues of 'function' that might appeal to you?

[Colt47]

To be fair, I think they had to make a choice between DRK and Summoner on reworks, and the Summoner definitely needed more help than DRK did during Shadowbringers. However, when they brought all the jobs into that new 60 second window the problems with DRKs lack of a solid direction ended up coming to the fore. I'd totally expect this job to be the target of a mid-expansion to 7.0 rework for sure.

Also it is interesting to see people talk about DRKs current burst windows because this is reminding me a lot of old summoner burst windows, though probably a touch more forgiving since it's just blood weapon that lacks charges.

[Marxam]

To be fair, I think they had to make a choice between DRK and Summoner on reworks, and the Summoner definitely needed more help than DRK did during Shadowbringers. However, when they brought all the jobs into that new 60 second window the problems with DRKs lack of a solid direction ended up coming to the fore. I'd totally expect this job to be the target of a mid-expansion to 7.0 rework for sure.

Also it is interesting to see people talk about DRKs current burst windows because this is reminding me a lot of old summoner burst windows, though probably a touch more forgiving since it's just blood weapon that lacks charges.

all they had to do was revert to 4.0 DRK. AST got some of its toolkit reverted to 4.0 and Astrodyne basically has Ewer, Arrow and Balance all in one if you get 3 different seals. Needless to say, pushing DRK into higher DPS to warrant a crappier invul and defensive cds is not a consolation prize. If dps between the tanks was within 1-3% there would be very little incentive to bring a DRK over another tank. I'm also not fond of double weaving with tanks as it leaves little room to use a defensive cd. You know, the thing that tanks should be actively doing? During burst tell me when you can fit a TBN during those double weaves without clipping gcds and I will concede that DRK has the best tank rework in 6.0.

DRK is scuffed and saying that its good because of its high DPS shows what's wrong with the job. On the other hand, ppl are saying WAR has great defensive cds, which is what tank players should want in a tank.