Dark Knight Megathread

[Lyth]

The problem with this is that it forces the DRK to use TBN on cooldown if they want their big DPS. Perhaps instead make it so something else gives the DA instead, something on a longer timer and isn't a defensive cooldown.

The Dark Arts gauge isn't actually necessary. It's just there is to preserve the mechanic terminology for historic reasons. You could just as easily have TBN grant a free Edge/Flood without calling it Dark Arts and creating a gauge for it.

What I'm suggesting is that we leave the TBN proc as it is, except without calling it Dark Arts. Instead, have Edge or Flood generate one stack of Dark Arts on use (regardless of whether its a free cast or not), and have Shadowbringers generate two stacks. Each step of your enhanced combo consumes a Dark Arts stack, in exchange for being higher potency and a bit of HP/MP/blood depending on the step.

...

There are only so many ways that you can implement combo systems. The most common system by far is to have a maintenance buff/debuff, and both of those approaches exist on WAR/PLD respectively, as well as on NIN/DRG. I also think that if you want to introduce a combo this late in job progression it needs to be fairly hard hitting so that it feels like an improvement. I think RPR's take on the system is an incredibly good match because it effectively combos off your oGCD creating a really nice flow, and because it fits DRK's overall resource management theme while actually making use of thee Dark Arts gauge. It doesn't really matter if we've seen something similar on another role before, as there's a ton of back and forth idea sharing between tanks and melee anyways.

[Archwizard]

I think that the idea of consuming 'Darkside time' as a resource is an interesting idea in theory, but in general we've seen more and more jobs move away from maintenance mechanics with each expansion (the Blood of the Dragon buff being the most recent example).

They're generally streamlined (BotD or Enochian) or replaced (Greased Lighting -> Nadi gauge), yes, but rarely removed wholesale without substitution. If they remove the "Darkside Time" element from DRK, it would likely be to make room for some new element, and both Living Shadow and Blood Gauge come extremely late in the leveling process to be considered sufficient for such purposes on their own, especially compared to every other tank getting some gauge or resource management between 30-35.

We just got over a period where it was awful to play DRK for about 40-odd levels. No active mitigation, no AoE combo, no healing till the late-50s...

They could theoretically reduce the level of Blood Gauge to that range, but combining that with the removal of Darkside would just exacerbate the "DRK = diet WAR" discussion.

That being said, DRK is also the only tank to use MP as a resource at such a low level, so it could be reasonable to consider our 30-ish gauge to be the MP bar, which would still mean room for some active element from MP management which Darkside attempts to facilitate -- beyond oGCDs for oGCDs' sake.

The removal of delirium as a finisher and Power Slash for ennmity really stripped DRK in GCD.
Could have just kept Power Slash as the damage combo and soul eater for healing.

Except that a choice between damage vs healing will always lead to the tank leaning on damage and expecting the healer to pick up the healing. Just look at PLD with Clemency.

[Kalaam]

Dark Art could be a buff you activate with the ability Dark Arts, that had a cost and CD (say 3K MP, 20 or 40s CD) but if you break TBN you can get the buff "for free"

[Keagian]

While the ideas that are shared are interesting in their own right, down the line they'll become a pain in the ass, wither its gauge management, stocking dark arts, or having to juggle buffs.

The biggest issue with current DRK aside from its lack of sustain, is its good moves being on a long ass CD. We don't get to use them until every 1 min or 1 min 30s and we are tied to a 2 min burst of oGCD fuckery. Where as GNB has a burst every 30s and a full burst every 1 min. PLD has a rotation that is straight forward and both their Physical and Magic phases are at least woven to be a complement of each other as they wait their physical or magical CD to come back up, while being in either phase. WAR is pretty much on a 1 min burst and has different combo paths. Meanwhile DRK, our CD are all over the place, we have 60s CD, a 90s one and 120s CD and a move that costs 3000mp that might not even line up with burst windows depending on how were spending that MP. They also sometimes don't even line up properly while the other tanks don't have this issue.

Way to fix how fucking boring DRK's 123 combo feels is to lower its offensive CD's so were not trying to stay awake spamming 123. They should lean into DRK's oGCD buttons more and allow use to use our cool abilities more often. Allow DRK to use Shadowbringer every 30s and lower its damage to compensate for us being able to use it more often, maybe even lower it to 1 stock.

Likewise move Salted Earth CD to 60s, same with Living Shadow. Our most defining trait currently is being able to summon a shadow that fights with us, is on a 2min CD, making it feel boring and is only there to help us remember that we have a 2min burst window. We only get 18 sec of actual use out of it, so let us use it more often.

[Nosaji_]

They should lean into DRK's oGCD buttons more and allow use to use our cool abilities more often. Allow DRK to use Shadowbringer every 30s and lower its damage to compensate for us being able to use it more often, maybe even lower it to 1 stock.

Likewise move Salted Earth CD to 60s, same with Living Shadow. Our most defining trait currently is being able to summon a shadow that fights with us, is on a 2min CD, making it feel boring and is only there to help us remember that we have a 2min burst window. We only get 18 sec of actual use out of it, so let us use it more often.

I agree that DRK's OGCDs are completely backloaded and need to be spread out a bit more to make it more interesting, I don't think moving more things into the 1 minute window is the answer.
You'd just go from an awful 2 min burst to every delirium being miserable.

Salted Earth is 2 OGCDs, Living Shadow is 1 (although you use that before bloodspillers), Shadowbringer being 30 seconds would mean you have to use it there too- Add that to the two Plunges, CnS and Edge spam, you go from not being able to mitigate at 2 min burst to not being able to mitigate for like, 12~15 seconds of every minute- that's like... a quarter of the fight? that you can't do your job during. (I'm not very clever so correct me if I'm wrong)

They definitely need to do something with OGCDs though, I still don't like Salted Earth and I think they should just give it's puddle to Abyssal Drain and then put a DoT on CnS that does the same damage as you'd get from the full duration of the puddle. I know that Archwizard said that the devs don't like DoTs, but that's essentially what Salted Earth is anyway, as well as Living Shadow. They're just more annoying to use than regular DoTs.

I'd also say that if anything they need to make Shadowbringer LESS frequent and more impactful, it absolutely doesn't feel like a capstone ability as it is now- compare it to Primal Rend, Blade of Valor. They're both something different, Rend is an AoE gap closer. Valor is a full ranged combo, although Paladin already had a lot of ranged stuff and I haven't actually played it so I can't say a lot.

Oblation is oblation, 10% DR is not bad but it's not... good, either. I think merging it with Dark Mind might be the wrong answer but getting rid of it and buffing TBN somehow is probably a good idea.

I think a second combo finisher would vastly improve the downtime, I haven't put any thought into this so I'm sure there's glaring flaws in it, but something like replace Syphon Strike with Spinning Slash, and then bring back old Delirium or something as a finisher that gives MP, while keeping Souleater as the higher damage HP restoring finisher.
I am aware that it'd be likely people would just spam the fuck out of the MP combo to get more Edges for more damage or whatever, but I'm sure they could fuck around with potencies to make the MP finisher low enough that it's not worth spamming it over Souleater- although you'd still need to get Blood from Souleater so maybe that's not really a concern.

My intention is that you'd have to actually be careful with your MP spending and plan ahead with what combo you're going to do. MP finisher would probably need to restore more than 600mp though, since it's not the 2nd action in your only combo like Syphon Strike is rn.

[Archwizard]

I think a second combo finisher would vastly improve the downtime, I haven't put any thought into this so I'm sure there's glaring flaws in it, but something like replace Syphon Strike with Spinning Slash, and then bring back old Delirium or something as a finisher that gives MP, while keeping Souleater as the higher damage HP restoring finisher.
I am aware that it'd be likely people would just spam the fuck out of the MP combo to get more Edges for more damage or whatever, but I'm sure they could fuck around with potencies to make the MP finisher low enough that it's not worth spamming it over Souleater- although you'd still need to get Blood from Souleater so maybe that's not really a concern.

My intention is that you'd have to actually be careful with your MP spending and plan ahead with what combo you're going to do. MP finisher would probably need to restore more than 600mp though, since it's not the 2nd action in your only combo like Syphon Strike is rn.

Unfortunately you're being a bit too simplistic with your reasoning for a second combo finisher. Both of the examples you provide when pitted against each other (Souleater vs Delirium/whatever) are instantaneous sources of damage with calculable potency values per GCD; players will use whichever combo mathematically gives them the most value to perform right now, and with both being flat potency per GCD with no other restrictions, one of the two combos will fall to the wayside entirely.

Compare other jobs' branching combos:
WAR's branching combo either gives instant damage and resources, OR extends the duration of a damage buff that facilitates the former.
PLD's branching combo either gives instant damage and resources, OR applies a DoT to the target that's more potent overall than the former.
In both of these cases, there is an element of necessity enforced by time: to use the latter combo more than strictly necessary to maintain their status effects is a damage loss compared to using the other combo finisher, but failure to maintain those status effects in favor of spamming the alternative combo is also a loss of damage.

Now, you don't have to have a status effect involved, but the important thing is the "higher value" finisher has a restriction keeping you from using it all the time.
If you stretch these definitions to their logical ends, you can also see this with GNB: it would prefer to use Double Down or Gnashing Fang over Burst Edge, but can't due to cooldown restrictions.

... None of which apply to what you've suggested, as yet.

I know that Archwizard said that the devs don't like DoTs, but that's essentially what Salted Earth is anyway, as well as Living Shadow. They're just more annoying to use than regular DoTs.

My understanding is that it's more of a combination of
- the devs believe players find upkeep timers tedious or confusing to maintain (especially on enemies, in the event of target swapping)
- bosses can only hold a limited number of status effects (both negative and positive) at a time, which makes DoTs eat resources

So on the one hand, a constant upkeep like Death's Design also falls under both of these despite not strictly being a damage-over-time effect, while Living Shadow and Salted Earth wouldn't since they're external sources of damage that don't have any upkeep (just fire and forget on a cooldown), despite applying periodic damage.
And in the former case, I'm guessing it's no coincidence that NIN and SMN lost their DoTs in the same expansion RPR and SGE were introduced.

[Nosaji_]

Compare other jobs' branching combos:
WAR's branching combo either gives instant damage and resources, OR extends the duration of a damage buff that facilitates the former.
PLD's branching combo either gives instant damage and resources, OR applies a DoT to the target that's more potent overall than the former.
In both of these cases, there is an element of necessity enforced by time: to use the latter combo more than strictly necessary to maintain their status effects is a damage loss compared to using the other combo finisher, but failure to maintain those status effects in favor of spamming the alternative combo is also a loss of damage

If DRK was to have the 600mp on Syphon Strike taken away and moved to an alternate finisher, it would be made necessary to do that finisher to regain MP in order to maintain Darkside and also use your main mitigation tool, I'd say that's enough incentive to use it. I did say that it'd need to have lower potency since, with Warrior at least, the actual damage loss from using Storm's Eye over Path is that you get less gauge, they both do the same amount of damage. But MP isn't used for Bloodspiller, which does do higher damage than Edge, but not by a lot.

Honestly I think Edge being a 1 second recast and having such a high potency compared to Bloodspiller is kinda dumb considering it gives DRK's 10% buff and doesn't have the downside that Storm's Eye does. It's also not exactly engaging just spamming it during bursts or to avoid overcapping, it feels quite bloaty to me. Warrior is meant to spend gauge rather than use Storm's Eye over Path to avoid overcapping, while DRK has to... spend their gauge to avoid overcapping, but in the process, refresh their buff :/

So yeah, Edge being what it is seems to be root of the problem that should be addressed, rather than just slapping on a second finisher.

As I said, I didn't put a whole lot of thought into it, just trying to think of a rough idea of how they could liven up the time between bursts a bit. I think the best alternative would be something like Scourge from your mockup, DRK could probably do without a constant upkeep effect- but I'd be surprised if they did something like that

Although if they did remove the MP cost from TBN then all of that stuff about an MP finisher would be complete garbage- but I wouldn't complain >.>

[Shurrikhan]

If DRK was to have the 600mp on Syphon Strike taken away and moved to an alternate finisher, it would be made necessary to do that finisher to regain MP in order to maintain Darkside and also use your main mitigation tool, I'd say that's enough incentive to use it. I did say that it'd need to have lower potency since, with Warrior at least, the actual damage loss from using Storm's Eye over Path is that you get less gauge, they both do the same amount of damage. But MP isn't used for Bloodspiller, which does do higher damage than Edge, but not by a lot.

I agree, for the most part. Just don't forget that Bloodspiller will have to be more than an Edge's worth of damage more than combos' average ppgcd.

In practice, we'd essentially...

• involve the second combo through Surging Tempest (but with an extra step),
  
  
• receive a bit more penalty from unbroken TBNs (though, such is pretty easily avoided anyways, so that's no huge factor), and
  
  
• need to siphon some potency from Edges to Bloodspillers and/or to reduce Bloodspiller/Quietus's relative Blood costs.

Is that an improvement? Yeah, sure. Having Darkside actually be a mechanic, even a copied one, is better than a non-mechanic.

A significant improvement? Honestly, no idea. It would depend on how you define "significant"?

[Archwizard]

If DRK was to have the 600mp on Syphon Strike taken away and moved to an alternate finisher, it would be made necessary to do that finisher to regain MP in order to maintain Darkside and also use your main mitigation tool, I'd say that's enough incentive to use it.

So here you run into two new issues:

1. How many GCDs are you spending generating the Darkside buff? Because those are GCDs necessarily being taken away from Blood Gauge.
2. Is the decision-making here esoteric to the point casual players need to look up a guide to understand how to play the job at a basic level, or may end up suffering choice paralysis when faced with a branching combo?

[baklava151]

I think a second combo finisher would vastly improve the downtime, I haven't put any thought into this so I'm sure there's glaring flaws in it, but something like replace Syphon Strike with Spinning Slash, and then bring back old Delirium or something as a finisher that gives MP, while keeping Souleater as the higher damage HP restoring finisher.
I am aware that it'd be likely people would just spam the fuck out of the MP combo to get more Edges for more damage or whatever, but I'm sure they could fuck around with potencies to make the MP finisher low enough that it's not worth spamming it over Souleater- although you'd still need to get Blood from Souleater so maybe that's not really a concern.

My intention is that you'd have to actually be careful with your MP spending and plan ahead with what combo you're going to do. MP finisher would probably need to restore more than 600mp though, since it's not the 2nd action in your only combo like Syphon Strike is rn.

I can see this working assuming the MP restore combo is weaker than the Souleater combo. It might also require messing with Blood Weapon, MP costs, MP generation, how much Darkside you get from Edge of Shadow, etc... to make it all work but I'd imagine it's doable.