[Sage] Fixing Toxikon

[EnnCee]

I'd also make E.prognosis able to give addersting if 4 or so shields get broken so we get incentivised to barrier mitigate AoE raidwides. Toxicon being tied to just E.diagnosis always felt weird to me.
Other than that i really like your idea.

this! toxikon just feels like wasted space on the hot bar after all is said and done.

[Archwizard]

I think the problem I see in a lot of discussions about Toxikon (and for that matter, Afflatus Misery) is that people complain about it being a DPS loss... because you can't fish for it.

Except, that defeats the point of such abilities overall. You're not meant to fish for a damage boost via healing, because encourage wasting vital tools overhealing your target for a damage gain (in this case, wasting large amounts of MP overhealing your tank in the hopes autoattacks will shatter the shield), over using such tools as they're needed.
At best they're supposed to recoup the damage loss incurred in a situation where you would need to use a GCD heal, a consolation reward for doing your job well.

That said, viewing them through this lens does highlight two issues:

1. Being the same potency as Dosis, Toxikon fails to recoup any of the damage lost from GCD healing. Outside an AoE scenario, there is no difference in following up an E.Diagnosis with a Toxikon vs with a regular Dosis, besides being an instant cast which needs to be charged on the GCD in the first place. Within an AoE scenario, it only offers a slight damage gain on your main target.

2. Since this is a game where even healer DPS is essential, using your GCDs healing instead of inflicting damage means you are "penalized" for doing the job you were brought in for.
This is especially noteworthy as a number of oGCD skills are equally or more potent for the purposes of healing than any available GCD heals themselves, so you're encouraged to burn through your whole repertoire before touching the core skills of your job -- which means tools and traits to build off of them tend to waste space.

But y'know, #2's more of a "general healer" concern really.

[ty_taurus]

I think the problem I see in a lot of discussions about Toxikon (and for that matter, Afflatus Misery) is that people complain about it being a DPS loss... because you can't fish for it.

Except, that defeats the point of such abilities overall. You're not meant to fish for a damage boost via healing, because encourage wasting vital tools overhealing your target for a damage gain (in this case, wasting large amounts of MP overhealing your tank in the hopes autoattacks will shatter the shield), over using such tools as they're needed.
At best they're supposed to recoup the damage loss incurred in a situation where you would need to use a GCD heal, a consolation reward for doing your job well.

That said, viewing them through this lens does highlight two issues:

1. Being the same potency as Dosis, Toxikon fails to recoup any of the damage lost from GCD healing. Outside an AoE scenario, there is no difference in following up an E.Diagnosis with a Toxikon vs with a regular Dosis, besides being an instant cast which needs to be charged on the GCD in the first place. Within an AoE scenario, it only offers a slight damage gain on your main target.

2. Since this is a game where even healer DPS is essential, using your GCDs healing instead of inflicting damage means you are "penalized" for doing the job you were brought in for.
This is especially noteworthy as a number of oGCD skills are equally or more potent for the purposes of healing than any available GCD heals themselves, so you're encouraged to burn through your whole repertoire before touching the core skills of your job -- which means tools and traits to build off of them tend to waste space.

But y'know, #2's more of a "general healer" concern really.

The problem with this mentality is that I never E. Diagnosis to begin with. I have so many other more prominent and useful single target heals that not only come first, but also have really short cooldowns, not to mention the very nature of Kardia often means I simply don't need to single target heal at all. I'll grant that I'm not finished with P3S and P4S yet, but unless I can't target the boss, the only times I've ever cast E. Diagnosis were last ditch efforts to try and survive in a desperate situation that never ended up in a clear anyway because there were too many mistakes to meet the DPS check.

E. Prognosis on the other hand does see a lot more value since it's great for giving you that added buffer right now when gear levels are low and some raid-wides are chewing through HP like it's nothing. It's a niche tool in the grand scheme of things, but worthwhile none-the-less.

[Silver-Strider]

I think the problem I see in a lot of discussions about Toxikon (and for that matter, Afflatus Misery) is that people complain about it being a DPS loss... because you can't fish for it.

Op isn't asking for a Damage boost though. They're asking for Toxicon to be made DPS neutral so that healers aren't punished for utilizing their GCD toolkit. A good 1/3 of most healer's toolkit revolves around GCD healing but it's the least utilized portion of our toolkit because the game's designs runs counter to using them. You can't beat a boss thru healing nor can you can't heal thru a hard enrage so the reasonable thing to do is ask how do you expand our GCD healing toolkit to be DPS neutral so that we can continue to do our jobs while also being aligned with the game's design.

Adding Skills and Traits that offer a way to make up for the deficiencies of our GCD healing toolkit is the only viable way to do so. You could argue that it creates button bloat but that argument only applies if you actually add in skills and not just utilize methods that condenses them. In OP's case, if Myorrhexis functions in a similar fashion to Seraph and Consultation, then you don't create button bloat because Toxicon would merely be replaced with Myorrhexis after using it. No button bloat, Toxicon is now DPS neutral and all is right with the world. From there, its just a manner of doing something similar for other healers and we can work from there. It would be a DPS buff only in the cases in which GCD healing was unavoidable, which is only really true when things go wrong and in regards to endgame, GCD healing in high percentiles are practically non-existent anyways (outside of WHM) so this would only really serve to raise the skill floor of healers and keeps the ceiling relatively unchanged.

[EaMett]

Am I the only one that thinks this mechanic works great as is? Yes, you NEED downtime to build the resource and a couple of fights don't have any (P1S/P4S). But generally speaking, you always have sufficient Addersting for every fight. And in the case of P1S you don't even need any. + In dungeons, you get them by the dozen.
I feel like Adderstings are in the perfect sweet spot right now. They give you almost exactly however many you need for each fight and it's down to you to manage them properly. If they made it any better sage would have infinite mobility.
It's really one of the few things I enjoy working towards on sage and that has made the skill ceiling nice to strive for.

[Archwizard]

They give you almost exactly however many you need for each fight and it's down to you to manage them properly. If they made it any better sage would have infinite mobility.

I don't think that's necessarily true, and I do think there are ways it could be improved without making it overpowered.

For instance, make Pepsis give an Addersting if you consume at least one E.Diagnosis on activation. That way you could use it to build a charge during downtime, and have actual value in Pepsis affecting E.Diagnosis in the first place. Not to mention it could be a niche tool if partied with a SCH or another SGE who might overwrite your barrier to build their own Addersting, ie roulettes.
Honestly, that could even be a QoL buff they could add to it in a .x patch.

Or -- again, for downtime purposes, and to save you a Pepsis -- have a spell (or ability that triggers GCD) that just generates an Addersgall, much like Umbral Soul, Meditate or Soulsow... though I would worry about this option since it would directly contribute to button bloat in the future.

Or, have Rhizomata give an Addersting outright, if they're feeling saucy. Could see that being a trait in the future, particularly if they ever made Toxikon outright stronger than Dosis to recoup some of the damage from barrier casting.

[elioaiko]

Honestly it's strange to me thay they wouldn't make Haima or Panhaima not proc it. As they're both 120s CDs so it's not like you can spam it.

Same with Divine Bension on WHM. If the shield breaks, it feeds the Blood Lily.

[EaMett]

I don't think that's necessarily true, and I do think there are ways it could be improved without making it overpowered.

For instance, make Pepsis give an Addersting if you consume at least one E.Diagnosis on activation. That way you could use it to build a charge during downtime, and have actual value in Pepsis affecting E.Diagnosis in the first place. Not to mention it could be a niche tool if partied with a SCH or another SGE who might overwrite your barrier to build their own Addersting, ie roulettes.
Honestly, that could even be a QoL buff they could add to it in a .x patch.

Or -- again, for downtime purposes, and to save you a Pepsis -- have a spell (or ability that triggers GCD) that just generates an Addersgall, much like Umbral Soul, Meditate or Soulsow... though I would worry about this option since it would directly contribute to button bloat in the future.

Or, have Rhizomata give an Addersting outright, if they're feeling saucy. Could see that being a trait in the future, particularly if they ever made Toxikon outright stronger than Dosis to recoup some of the damage from barrier casting.

At the very least, there isn't a fight in the current content that requires more Adderstings than you can get. You can already cover 100% mobility for all fights. So in that sense, there doesn't seem to be a need to improve it.
We'll see what the future has in store for us. But right now, if you feel like you don't have enough Addersting and you need more mobility, then that means you most likely messed up somewhere along the way.

[AnotherPerson]

I'm fine with giving a change to Toxikon II through another skill on a charge system, so it's only DPS Neutral under certain circumstances. In this case, it will allow actually accumulating the stacks for movement during combat without being a direct DPS loss. However... if you want Toxikon II to be DPS Neutral, you would also have to consider the amount of extra healing potency Sage will get from having to hardcast the heals without a DPS penalty, because it will effectively change their GCD healing into a roundabout way to oGCD heal like lilies do. For that to happen, the healing toolkit will have to be either considerably weaker to make room for this change at the current level, or it will be given as a trait at a later level to act as the new 'healing' skill.

Toxikon II isn't a completely bad mechanic for its purpose in the Sage toolkit. It currently functions like the healer's version of a mix between Reaper's Soulsow for downtime. You use it when you can't hit the enemy for whatever reason to be a DPS gain when you are forced to move a lot and can't hardcast. Having downtime to build stacks is a nice way to have some engagement to the job IMO because of how flexible Toxikon II can be for weaving and mobility purposes. It just feels more lacking since healers are basically looking at it as Dosis III or [DPS gauge mechanic] rather than Dosis III or Soulsow, but that's just a healer problem in general.

What Toxikon II currently offers is both mobility & double weave slots (such as pairing Krasis and Physis II in one GCD to get out your buffing skills asap rather than wait another GCD and to turn on your second healing buff or clip). This is important, because with more healing skills, double weaving oGCD skills together feels more and more important. Otherwise, you'd feel like you have too many skills to press instantly and it feels like bloat (which is what AST is suffering from, since they can't get double weaves outside of Lightspeed and Lightspeed has a fairly long cooldown while most of its toolkit is 60 seconds or shorter).

Phlegma has both a close ranged positional requirement and would rather be used under raid buffs when applicable, so the optimized usage is a bit more stricter. It just doesn't always align under a raid buff due to being a 45 second timer, but you'd ideally try to place it in... unless you would have to move and cannot slidecast, so you'd use an instant cast GCD rather than losing a GCD. This is where Toxikon II comes in when it's gained pre-pulled. Not only does it avoid having a lack of instant GCD DPS when moving large distances for long periods of time, but it also enhances / gives more flexibility to specifically double weave without using Phlegma outside of these windows, all while not having a close range requirement. The caveat is that it's not spammable unless you want to incur a DPS loss, so using it to prevent a loss of GCD DPS is important for optimizing gameplay.

However, I do agree that there are a lot more things that can be done to improve the generation of addersting because it's a very niche situation to be in. Only getting 3 adderstings for a very long fight if there's no transitions? Feels like the gauge gets underutilized in non-optimized scenarios.

Without affecting healing output too much, having 1 shield break in E. Diagnosis or 4 shields break in E. Prognosis to generate 1 addersting would be a nice change currently. Having Rhizomata generate both an addersgall and an addersting would also be great. Just lots of small QoL changes that would make the toolkit come together imo.

[ty_taurus]

I'm fine with giving a change to Toxikon II through another skill on a charge system, so it's only DPS Neutral under certain circumstances. In this case, it will allow actually accumulating the stacks for movement during combat without being a direct DPS loss. However... if you want Toxikon II to be DPS Neutral, you would also have to consider the amount of extra healing potency Sage will get from having to hardcast the heals without a DPS penalty, because it will effectively change their GCD healing into a roundabout way to oGCD heal like lilies do. For that to happen, the healing toolkit will have to be either considerably weaker to make room for this change at the current level, or it will be given as a trait at a later level to act as the new 'healing' skill.

Toxikon II isn't a completely bad mechanic for its purpose in the Sage toolkit. It currently functions like the healer's version of a mix between Reaper's Soulsow for downtime. You use it when you can't hit the enemy for whatever reason to be a DPS gain when you are forced to move a lot and can't hardcast. Having downtime to build stacks is a nice way to have some engagement to the job IMO because of how flexible Toxikon II can be for weaving and mobility purposes. It just feels more lacking since healers are basically looking at it as Dosis III or [DPS gauge mechanic] rather than Dosis III or Soulsow, but that's just a healer problem in general.

What Toxikon II currently offers is both mobility & double weave slots (such as pairing Krasis and Physis II in one GCD to get out your buffing skills asap rather than wait another GCD and to turn on your second healing buff or clip). This is important, because with more healing skills, double weaving oGCD skills together feels more and more important. Otherwise, you'd feel like you have too many skills to press instantly and it feels like bloat (which is what AST is suffering from, since they can't get double weaves outside of Lightspeed and Lightspeed has a fairly long cooldown while most of its toolkit is 60 seconds or shorter).

Phlegma has both a close ranged positional requirement and would rather be used under raid buffs when applicable, so the optimized usage is a bit more stricter. It just doesn't always align under a raid buff due to being a 45 second timer, but you'd ideally try to place it in... unless you would have to move and cannot slidecast, so you'd use an instant cast GCD rather than losing a GCD. This is where Toxikon II comes in when it's gained pre-pulled. Not only does it avoid having a lack of instant GCD DPS when moving large distances for long periods of time, but it also enhances / gives more flexibility to specifically double weave without using Phlegma outside of these windows, all while not having a close range requirement. The caveat is that it's not spammable unless you want to incur a DPS loss, so using it to prevent a loss of GCD DPS is important for optimizing gameplay.

However, I do agree that there are a lot more things that can be done to improve the generation of addersting because it's a very niche situation to be in. Only getting 3 adderstings for a very long fight if there's no transitions? Feels like the gauge gets underutilized in non-optimized scenarios.

Without affecting healing output too much, having 1 shield break in E. Diagnosis or 4 shields break in E. Prognosis to generate 1 addersting would be a nice change currently. Having Rhizomata generate both an addersgall and an addersting would also be great. Just lots of small QoL changes that would make the toolkit come together imo.

I would argue that this line kind of encapsulates my frustrations with Addersting as a resource in general. I cannot agree with saying it's a well-working system for a resource to, in many situations, be restricted to only being generated when there's literally nothing else to do. It's why Shadowbringers Improvisation on Dancer was such a bad tool conceptually and was reworked, for example--a different kind of tool, but one with the same core flaw. No one will ever be able to sell me on a resource who's only method of being generated is objectively a terrible waste of your time.

I see people mentioning generating Addersting in other ways such as through Rhizomata or Pepsis, but I feel like that's resigning Addersting to just be a glorified Ruin II for the rest of its existence, and I just don't want that. The promise of a potential way to actually encourage GCD healing for once in this game's forsaken existence, resulting in something that's satisfying and a core part of your gameplay should sound like a breath of fresh air for everyone, and to be fair, I really think it would be better for all players, casual, midcore, and hardcore alike, if this were encouraged more with all healers and not just Sage.

There's another thread on the forum that stumbled across a really fascinating video about retouching WHM's gameplay to be stronger, and one such suggestion was allowing GCD healing to proc "Diacloud" in a similar fashion to BLM's Thundercloud, for example.