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  1. #21
    Player
    Silver-Strider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,753
    Character
    Silver Strider
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ty_taurus View Post
    I would argue that this line kind of encapsulates my frustrations with Addersting as a resource in general. I cannot agree with saying it's a well-working system for a resource to, in many situations, be restricted to only being generated when there's literally nothing else to do. It's why Shadowbringers Improvisation on Dancer was such a bad tool conceptually and was reworked, for example--a different kind of tool, but one with the same core flaw. No one will ever be able to sell me on a resource who's only method of being generated is objectively a terrible waste of your time.

    I see people mentioning generating Addersting in other ways such as through Rhizomata or Pepsis, but I feel like that's resigning Addersting to just be a glorified Ruin II for the rest of its existence, and I just don't want that. The promise of a potential way to actually encourage GCD healing for once in this game's forsaken existence, resulting in something that's satisfying and a core part of your gameplay should sound like a breath of fresh air for everyone, and to be fair, I really think it would be better for all players, casual, midcore, and hardcore alike, if this were encouraged more with all healers and not just Sage.

    There's another thread on the forum that stumbled across a really fascinating video about retouching WHM's gameplay to be stronger, and one such suggestion was allowing GCD healing to proc "Diacloud" in a similar fashion to BLM's Thundercloud, for example.
    Link
    Here's the video.
    (0)

  2. #22
    Player
    Recon1o6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    1,296
    Character
    Avarnia Corthal
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 90
    Personally toxikon is flawed no matter which way you look at it

    1. For a different damage button to press its rubbish as you get just a single use per fight unless you have downtime if your party is remotely competent and/or you know the basics of healing (use ogcds then gcds)
    2. Its supposed benefit of mobility is not needed as Sage is only slightly less mobile than red mage
    3. As a synergy idea for gcd to reward dps, it fails utterly as its a loss to use.

    How to fix it depends on what do we want done to it. At the very least more addersting generation is required. My vote goes to haima and rhizomata each granting an addersting.

    I personally would like it to become a proper damage button that rewards healing in some fashion as opposed to being a loss.
    Split toxikon 1 and 2 up. Tox 1 can be a mobility tool, Toxikon 2 can be the dps reward.
    (2)

  3. #23
    Player
    ForteNightshade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    3,649
    Character
    Kurenai Tenshi
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by EaMett View Post
    At the very least, there isn't a fight in the current content that requires more Adderstings than you can get. You can already cover 100% mobility for all fights. So in that sense, there doesn't seem to be a need to improve it.
    We'll see what the future has in store for us. But right now, if you feel like you don't have enough Addersting and you need more mobility, then that means you most likely messed up somewhere along the way.
    This is simply untrue. P4S has a plethora of movement without any downtime. Act II, IV and Finale alone all require running around the arena quickly, thereby making it extremely tight or straight up impossible to slide cast. This gets worse if you're doing uptime Act III since healers are literally going from one side of the arena to the other. Although, Icarus does help here. Nevertheless, Scholar has Ruin II at only a 95 potency loss, Astro has Light Speed and even White Mage has Lilies for the heavy AoE spam portion which actually works in their favor since they need to heal anyway.

    Sage is the only healer in P4S that just takes a giant L.
    (0)
    "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters."
    "The silence is your answer."


  4. #24
    Player
    KDSilver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    1,533
    Character
    Shiru Elysia
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 100
    I'd just make Rhizomata generates both 1 stack of Addersgall and Addersting to "partially fix" the problem in fight where you don't have to cast a ST shield (no downtime included) - other better ideas welcome

    I disagree however with people saying it's a bad movment tool.
    Phlegma alone can't cover every situation you'd have to make walk for more than 2s/double weaving situation/or if you want to minmax your DPS and use phlegma for raid burst window

    I had plenty of uses for P2S an P3S for example and I'm glad I have this mechanic (with shield generate before pull and during downtime only of course)
    (2)
    Last edited by KDSilver; 01-22-2022 at 10:25 PM.

  5. #25
    Player
    Liam_Harper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    3,470
    Character
    Liam Harper
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    Personally I'd make Toxicon consume Addersgall stacks if you're out of Addersting and have Rhizo generate 1 sting as well. That allows you to turn excess Addersting into more mobility.

    Toxicon is the ideal mobility tool. It's an aoe Ruin II without potency loss. I'd keep it as such. Making it dps neutral and trying to encourage us to spam EDiag constantly when we already have tons of healing would be a bad path to go down.
    (4)

  6. #26
    Player
    Hanayumi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    1,227
    Character
    Kara Dusksinger
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Think toxicon is fine for the most part, personally id love a addersgall spender that gave an addersting stack instead, it would fix my 2 only issues with Sage, need a gall spender that isnt a overhealing and need for more sting without having to totally rely on E.Dia...
    (0)

  7. #27
    Player
    EaMett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    1,430
    Character
    Ea Sin
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by ForteNightshade View Post
    This is simply untrue. P4S has a plethora of movement without any downtime. Act II, IV and Finale alone all require running around the arena quickly, thereby making it extremely tight or straight up impossible to slide cast. This gets worse if you're doing uptime Act III since healers are literally going from one side of the arena to the other. Although, Icarus does help here. Nevertheless, Scholar has Ruin II at only a 95 potency loss, Astro has Light Speed and even White Mage has Lilies for the heavy AoE spam portion which actually works in their favor since they need to heal anyway.

    Sage is the only healer in P4S that just takes a giant L.
    ACT II can be covered with sprint, one Phlegma, one Toxicon and one Icarus (and some slidecasting). You also get an e.Dosis window towards the end.
    ACT IV will depend on where you start from but it can generally be covered with one Icarus, one Phlegma, one Toxicon, and some good placement + slide casting. You essentially only need a movement tool for every other tether (so two total).
    For Finale, you can pick whatever skill you want from everything you have left since you won't need any Toxicon for the rest of the fight (IIRC). So feel free to Toxicon, Phlegma, Icarus, etc. etc. You'll most likely only need two options, maybe a third if you're really unlucky.

    And I haven't even mentioned swift + dosis. That's another item you have available if you want to save Phlegma for burst windows or something unexpected happened and you're low on mobility options.

    P4S phase 2 lasts ~ 8mns. If I round down all the options we have, that's anywhere between 22 and 49 GCDs of movement depending on whether you can leverage Icarus and/or e.Dosis for movement (5 Swiftcasts + 16 phlegma + 3 Toxicon + 8 icarus + 15 e.dosis). For the record, I also assume you might want to use a couple of Swiftcasts for easy pneuma healing. That's roughly 2-6 options per minute. You can absolutely get 100% mobility on the fight. And the door boss is similar.

    I will agree that the last section is a bit of a pain on sage but that has nothing to do with movement.

    Edit: And ACT III uptime doesn't change much compared to the more traditional strat for movement. It just shifts when you use your "movement" gcd from using it to go take the earth shaker to using it to get the second tower.
    (0)
    Last edited by EaMett; 01-23-2022 at 03:46 AM.

  8. #28
    Player
    ty_taurus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    3,647
    Character
    Noah Orih
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    You know, something we could even do right now during 6.0 would just be to increase Toxikon's potency to 660 but give it 2 charges and a cooldown of 30 seconds, essentially simplifying the original solution.

    As effective at selling the existing Toxikon as inoffensive at best has been for me, I've yet to be convinced that dedicating an entire resource management system to old Ruin II is a good or healthy aspect of job design. If you recall, once upon a time, Ruin II matched its potency with Broil's on SCH but costed more MP.

    It's kind of ironic that SE started taking a mobility tax from the healers with Ruin II, elongating Lightspeed's cooldown, and creating the lily system as a DPS loss, when having all these tools be accessible and DPS neutral makes healing more accessible and less punishing, and not the other way around.
    (1)

  9. #29
    Player
    ssunny2008's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    577
    Character
    Micela Arzur
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by QooEr View Post
    a movement tool on the already most mobile healer. its purpose is already defeated
    Toxikon is fine where it is for its movement reason.

    There are fights where you need to be fast e.g. P2s/P3s. So in the start you gave the tank a busted shield, it broke and you get your stack to use toxikon later where you actually need it. Otherwise you would need to save a stack of Phlegma and it´s something you don´t want, because you want to use it in burst phases and you´ve to stay close to the enemy.

    So far Toxikon is fine as it is. It´s a niche tool for damage / mobility - optimization. There is no need to fix or to rework it. It´s like SSS... useful niche-tools, no need to make use of every button 100% of the time.
    (0)
    Last edited by ssunny2008; 01-23-2022 at 06:39 PM.

  10. #30
    Player Seraphor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4,620
    Character
    Seraphor Vhinasch
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    I think there's a hell of a lot of overthinking going on here.
    Ultimately GCD healing is inefficient but sometimes necessary, and Toxicon is a tool for partially refunding the cost of a GCD heal. Partially being the keyword, because if it was a full refund, then GCD healing wouldn't be a suboptimal choice and there would be no weight to your choice to use them.

    Toxicon could do with a minor potency buff, to make it marginally more useful in single target contexts, but that's about it.
    (3)

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