What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lauront]

There's no guarantee they had to listen to Azem. They didn't in the island story. Azem went against their decision to save innocent people the Convocation was just going to let die.

As per the section you quoted, the island already had time to evacuate. It is implied that Azem went there to save their way of life more than anything else. It also clearly does not apply to the situation in the Final Days, nor can we extrapolate it being applicable to the Convocation in general... because the Convocation instituted that seat precisely for the purposes of informing its decisions. And no, they're not bound to agree with everything one of their number dictates. However, were you to quote the rest of it, we also saw that Elidibus wanted to give some weight to their opinion because he enjoyed the novelty of their perspective, and conscripted Emet-Selch's help for that, and he obliged even after his usual grumbling. Something which is clear throughout Elpis as well is that the ancients were open to new ideas where they saw the merit in them. If you are trying to extrapolate a general stance of indifference from this, in the face of all the conflicting evidence, as opposed to this being a case by case decision, I do not think this comes anywhere near to making that case.

The Ancients may have held funeral rites and respected deaths but their folly was complacency.

I'd have thought Endwalker would have dispelled misconceptions like this. I could understand this pre-EW, where it was unknown how the Final Days unfolded. That is no longer the case. I'm not sure what "complacency" we're talking about here, because even with the causes of the Final Days hidden from them, they took action to investigate and prevent it even at the earliest signs of its spread.

This is from Ere Our Curtain Falls, the same story I referenced in my previous comment

"The people were divided, unable to decide what to do with the future that now stretched out before them. Many wished to trade the new life which had sprung forth to reclaim those lost in sacrifice to Zodiark. No small number, however, insisted that the fate of our world should be entrusted to those selfsame freshly minted souls. "

So, this new life had souls and they wanted to sacrifice it to get back what they had.

Yes, and from Elpis we know any creation qualifying as living does, so anything from animals to monsters and maybe certain familiars. Arcane entities on the other hand generally do not. Regarding familiars, which the MC presents themselves as but which they remark upon as being exceptional in nature in the sidequests, there is a clear inference that actual familiars were not as sapient, but at least harboured some degree of this in the sense that an AI might to us. So where does this new life fall on that spectrum, from animal to full blown ancient? We've no idea at this point. You say it's new people. The truth is, we don't know what the star was sticking souls into at that point after the planet was devastated and then restored, and there is a whole spectrum of possibilities ranging from animals to monsters to beings closer to Meteion (implied to have gained a soul although Hermes wouldn't let her be examined) to beings nearer to the sundered, to ancients, and without knowing the precise answer as to which of these it is, the degree to which it was "people" in their eyes is debatable. As Rulakir notes, it is very ambiguous. Again the discussion between Venat's faction and those that wished to sacrifice is very much fixated on repeating their doom as opposed to the morality of the sacrifices as such, which leads me to think these may have been sapient beings but not necessarily on the order of an ancient, and ones which they believed with some guidance could replace their people, for the ostensible ultimate aim of avoiding the fate of the Plenty. But all discussion on this is 100% speculative and unfortunately this represents the sum total of all we know about them pre-EW, and EW does not really add much other than some general info about creations, which further muddies the waters. Unless the devs choose to answer the question in the affirmative as to what they are, it will remain speculative. For the avoidance of any doubt, I am agnostic on the morality of the issue because of all the variables we're missing - I can see the argument for the sacrifices depending on what was being exchanged and I can also understand their desire for it, and why her arguments, failing to detail the rationale behind her concern (she had her reasons for it, even if I consider them a bit weak) would fail to convince them. Had the actual reasons been given, to explain how they could end up potentially dooming themselves in the process, they may have chosen not to proceed with it, or at least adjust their future plans in other ways, i.e. maybe leave them in until Meteion is defeated, and then end Zodiark and free the souls. I also don't consider it an adequate reason to sunder them, which is why I believe they had to introduce so many constraints via the time travel plot device, to limit what she could do and force the sundering to go ahead. As for what we're shown her saying to them? Just comes across as platitudes and is no doubt dismissed on that basis.

They did have a moral quandary as Ere Our Curtain Falls outlines

"The people were divided, unable to decide what to do with the future that now stretched out before them. Many wished to trade the new life which had sprung forth to reclaim those lost in sacrifice to Zodiark. No small number, however, insisted that the fate of our world should be entrusted to those selfsame freshly minted souls. All were at our wits' end."

It doesn't seem likely that they're going to debate entrusting the world to flora and fauna. Like you said, they would sacrifice without hesitation. But what would give pause? New people.

Also....why sacrifice at all? Their people are lost. It's very sad. Move on. Humanity learned how to do this after the Sundering. They couldn't.

Because they had a means to free the souls in limbo within Zodiark. If sundered humanity (with the same urges to minimise suffering and strive for a "better tomorrow" existing within it) had been left in this sort of position, I believe they'd have acted the same... if they'd faced anything like that level of devastation, and not just a fraction of it, and with a solution that came at a heavy cost to them. Given the metaphysics of the setting, they're not dead in the usual sense but stuck in a limbo inside Zodiark and unable to eventually re-connect with the star, which was something they cherished and would've been seen as a denial of this desire of the sacrificed ancients by their peers; at the same time, Zodiark had to remain up at full power. And as Rulakir noted, they had to perform sacrifices to summon him initially as the Final Days had desiccated the star, leaving them no other option, and even then, the whole thing about releasing those in Zodiark was debated extensively, with Elidibus even emerging to mediate it, as noted in the source compilation I posted above. So the "move on" just rings rather hollow as an exhortation. Again Venat's concern is their world would end like the Plenty, albeit based on a one line summary of that world's report. Thus the exhortation to accept suffering. But she never explains the why behind it all, so it just comes across as capricious platitudes. We can see they were strongly committed to the well-being of their star - but in the absence of actually explaining the why behind it all, she's doing the equivalent of throwing the equivalent of a google search of "inspiring quotes" on suffering at them.

I'm not particularly convinced they HAVE dealt with Zodiark.

This is a bit of a stretch but consider Hydaelyn sundered the world and Zodiark; splitting the source into reflections.

Then, it is pretty feasible that she remained unsundered herself while Zodiark may very much exist in multiple worlds simultaneously.
Within the realm of possibility that we only encountered the Zodiark fragment which remained in the Source

Bizarrely enough, she is sundered too.

I've lost plenty of people and some still hurt every day. I never forgot them, but I also can't let that run my life.

You've not witnessed the near extinction of your own people and planet. They did. You don't exist in a setting where (at least as far as we know) there is a thing such as the soul, which survives corporeal death, and which was stuck inside a limbo in Zodiark, unable to complete their return to the star. Let's not try pretend it's comparable. If you want to say you'd not try bring them back in such a scenario? Fine, but talk is cheap.

That's also just one group. There are plenty of groups we've met in the MSQ over the years who experienced tragic losses and forged ahead. And we never would have been able to defeat Endsinger if humanity hadn't learned to continue on past tragedy. We tell Meteion ourselves when says what she was looking for was always on Etheirys. It wasn't always there.

Convenient for them that they had a bunch of heroes to provide them the assurance that all would be well so that they could forge ahead, while their world suffered nothing like that level of devastation - again, the Final Days devastated the entire star to the point that the elements ceased to function properly. Meteion is ultimately defeated by just a handful of sundered. The idea that the ancients, cognisant of the threat, could not devise a method to rout her, especially with all the tools at their disposal, like those mentioned in this post, is fatuous to me.

You forgot that there were people who witnessed Emet, Hyppo (forgot his name), Venat, and a so-called Azem's familiar entered the lv77 dungeon. People only knew that there was some problems with Kaitos that deleted memories of Emet, Hyppo and Hermes - the culprit himself. Even if Venat shows up and tells the truth, then people will just think that her memory got fumbled by the memory wiping device. Let's say Emet, Hyppo believed her and try to rally their people. It might make some noises, but the ultimate end is that people would just conclude these three having unreliable memories due to the incident. After all, it was 1 person who knew the truth, 2 people who had zero memory about what happened that just followed the flow vs the whole race who just wants to play god to perfect their star. And obviously, WoL could not stay there for too long to re-tell them the stories cuz the time-travel magic is running out right after the lv77 dungeon.

All of this is negated by the existence of the Echo.

Remember that she actually tried to reason with the Ancients, who was so absorbed with sacrificing to return to the blissful day instead of accepting suffering as part of their life and move on.

She doesn't reason with them by explaining what happened. She offers what would seem like platitudes about suffering in the face of the devastation of their star and people.

And if you think they can "revive" the dead that easily, just look at what happened to the lamia girl who was the daughter that was killed and revived by Laskmi back in SB - an empty husk without soul.

If only that were even remotely analogous. Lakshmi is a primal of bliss. She had no desire to do what was asked of her, even assuming she had the ability. Zodiark on the other hand is quite literally a body-suit for Elidibus, composed of their souls, which exist within Zodiark in a limbo. Meanwhile they possess amongst their number an expert in identifying souls, one even capable of retrieving one with the snap of finger just after she'd "died". The Lakshmi comparison just doesn't wash.

Zodiark is a band-aid for Final Days and a dead-end for the Ancient. A dead-end for the star vs a chance to fight back, Venat took the latter, and admitted there was no justice in her action.

A band-aid that lasted at least 12k years and protected it for as long. Venat admitted he was necessary. I might even agree that the third stage of sacrifices was not the best of ideas, but unless she explained her motives for it (i.e. what Meteion saw on the Plenty), and that it'd be best to forge on with what they had and eventually free those souls from Zodiark once Meteion was gone, but I'm afraid her people had little reason to agree with the platitudes she was offering at the time, offered at the worst time possible.

And if you still think she just wanted to play Goddess, then what was the point of playing Goddess if your ultimate fate was the fuel for Ragnarok?

The mothercrystal's fate. Not hers. She still got to do it for 12k years, and then proceeds to make her way to the world of the dead.

And yet it was necessary. The unsundered were about to sacrifice new life to perpetuate their own version of the world, and doom all life in so doing. The story says this, clearly, and makes it clear when Emet concedes Venat was correct, much to his frustration, that she was right.

Hmmmm no he doesn't. As I noted before, the French version makes it clearer that what he's referring to is stepping foot on Ultima Thule. See here. He also goes on in that same scene to say that his principles are invincible, and given the more qualified nature of the concession in the French version, it ties together better.

This convo? Again? Really?



They weren’t sacrificing chickens.

Same goes for you. You've tried to link this before. This is from 12k years afterwards, after the Sundering had fractured all souls on the star. By which point the plan had changed to glue the planet and all life upon it back together, as it had been fragmented. Given that the surviving ancients would've also been fragmented into what are now the sundered (and particularly Azem), of course the Ascian plan entails that as a component. Thus using this as any sort of evidence as to what the nature of the sacrifices was before the Sundering is a trifle disingenuous.

[EaraGrace]

Same goes for you. You've tried to link this before. This is from 12k years afterwards, after the Sundering had fractured all souls on the star. By which point the plan had changed to glue the planet and all life upon it back together, as it had been fragmented. Given that the surviving ancients would've also been fragmented into what are now the sundered (and particularly Azem), of course the Ascian plan entails that as a component. Thus using this as any sort of evidence as to what the nature of the sacrifices was before the Sundering is a trifle disingenuous.

That particular part of the plan comes after Emet says the Rejoining has been completed. He’s not talking about sacrificing sundered, but rejoined souls. So either he, in his own moral system, is ok with sacrificing beings worth of moral consideration because he’s bitter and angry at them and would rather see them suffer when an alternative remains, or this was part of the plan all along.

[Lauront]

That particular part of the plan comes after Emet says the Rejoining has been completed. He’s not talking about sacrificing sundered, but rejoined souls. So either he, in his own moral system, is ok with sacrificing beings worth of moral consideration because he’s bitter and angry at them and would rather see them suffer when an alternative remains, or this was part of the plan all along.

...or because the Rejoinings don't necessarily automatically yield ancients. We've seen this from the Source vs the First, where the life forms are more or less indistinguishable barring soul density, and very distant from an ancient. Bearing in mind that amongst the sundered are fragments of ancient souls which they very much would've wanted to restore, like Emet's old pal, Azem. Which makes arguing back from their end result and what would be required at the end of them to restore the ancients, to what would've happened before then when we're talking about vaguely specified "new lives", an exercise in futility. You're free to consider it as evidence of some prior plan but it's not very compelling because of all these confounding factors, IMO.

Meanwhile in Venat's moral system, it's fine to sunder the entire world because she deems it for the greater good.

There's the fact that Venat and her group objected to it pre-sundering. In fact, the new life would have to be of such quality to be offered up as sacrifice to Zodiark in order to revive the lost Ancients.

Yes, and why did they object to it pre-sundering? Because they thought the ancients were on a path to repeat their doom. The entire reasoning for surrendering the star over to the new lives ties into that.

And the latter part is a non sequitur. It would only need to provide sufficient aether for it, as it is aether Zodiark required. Again this is accounted for in the part of their plan where Zodiark stimulated the planet's natural vitality until it was bursting with new life - no doubt on account of his aspect of darkness. So it may be a case where the quantity here would do the trick.

[linayar]

Yes, and why did they object to it pre-sundering? Because they thought the ancients were on a path to repeat their doom. The entire reasoning for surrendering the star over to the new lives ties into that.

Yes, but Venat's words suggest that the method was also wrong. If the method was irrelevant due to the nature of the new life, then it wouldn't have to be mentioned.

And the latter part is a non sequitur. It would only need to provide sufficient aether for it, as it is aether Zodiark required. Again this is accounted for in the part of their plan where Zodiark stimulated the planet's natural vitality until it was bursting with new life - no doubt on account of his aspect of darkness. So it may be a case where the quantity here would do the trick.

In that case, they wouldn't need a living sacrifice, merely a sufficient concentration of aether.

[Garet]

Yes, but Venat's words suggest that the method was also wrong. If the method was irrelevant due to the nature of the new life, then it wouldn't have to be mentioned.

In that case, they wouldn't need a living sacrifice, merely a sufficient concentration of aether.

From what I can recall Venat and her group did not entirely opposed the creation of zodiark. Only after zodiark failed and the other ascians wanted to sacrifice more people that venat and her group opposed it. Zodiark was only a stopgap measure and not something that can reach and kill meteion at that point. Zodiark shielded and revitalized the ancient world temporarily but when despair was again starting to creep in the solution of sacrificing more to the point of extinction seemed pointless to Venat.

Even Meteion bragged to us as we made our way to her that even if we were to create another zodiark like shield that she will just wait for the shield it creates to go down eventually and her despair will eventually overwhelm our planet. Hence Venat created the moon ark in case the WoL cannot defeat Meteion because eventually the shield provided by zodiark willl go down even without Fandaniel's schemes which made it go down earlier that estimated.

[KizuyaKatogami]

All these people bashing the ancients for sacrificing etc. I’m really curious then on how you all feel with Venat’s backup plan being to sacrifice all of the other shards and only have the people on the source survive. So much for all of her “children” hm? Or how about we talk about ironworks, instead of moving forward, decided to mess with time and jeopardize billions of people just to being 1 person back to life. So much for the sundered moving forward and not being tied to the past. Oh but i’m sure this is just one of many examples of it being perfectly okay when the protagonists do it, but when the antagonists do it it’s wrong.

As far as Venat telling people goes, we at the very least know she didn’t even tell the truth to her own people who were going to sacrifice themselves for Hydaelyn. As per the anamnesis cutscene, it seems they didn’t even know she was going to die or that they would be sacrificed. But also, i’m not sure why people are acting like she was some horrible person the ancients hated and would never believe? She’s an ex-convocation member. She’s friends with one of the most popular ones. She used to be Azem. There are many many ways she could’ve gone about telling them. About the whole “well she talked them later on” yes, she talked them after the fact, after the planet was dying, and they had lost their loved ones. The fact is she could’ve prevented all of that completely. Instead she lost hope for her own people, and placed it in a single person. Of whom by the way, is part of a group of people(sundered) who give into despair just as easy if not even easier than the ancients did. So i’m not sure why that’s even an argument. We have both garlemald and thavnair for that. Just because our plot armor scions don’t give into it doesn’t change the fact 90% of the sundered would give into despair just as easily.

[Garet]

All these people bashing the ancients for sacrificing etc. I’m really curious then on how you all feel with Venat’s backup plan being to sacrifice all of the other shards and only have the people on the source survive. So much for all of her “children” hm? Or how about we talk about ironworks, instead of moving forward, decided to mess with time and jeopardize billions of people just to being 1 person back to life. So much for the sundered moving forward and not being tied to the past. Oh but i’m sure this is just one of many examples of it being perfectly okay when the protagonists do it, but when the antagonists do it it’s wrong.

Venat is not a god. Sure the ascians may seem godlike to normal eorzeans but they are still people that are just more advanced etc. The source was the priority because it is "The Source" wherein if it gets destroyed all the other reflections gets destroyed along with it. And if it is saved then all will be saved. In the event that the WoL do fail she wanted to save as many as she can from the source so that our people will not be extinct. If Venat is a god that has the power to save everyone then she would have the power to end meteion back when we first encountered her in elpis. Meteion would not have escaped Venat, Hydo and Emet.

Hydaelyn and Zodiark are just powerful primals as well that may seem like a god but really isn't. And they are certainly not all powerful cosmic beings that can create and destroy universes.

In the end, Venat's faith of what she has seen so far of our WoL will be able to defeat Meteion paid off which is better than sacrificing her entire people to zodiark who may keep meteion at bay for a few thousand more years but will inevitably get overwhelmed as well.

[Lauront]

I think it very compelling. Emet being willing to, and in fact planning on, sacrificing human rejoined souls says much about the lengths they were willing to go to to bring back those they lost. Likewise, you’re free to disregard it or insist that the plan was completely different in the past,

I am discounting it because it has a huge problem in it: 25% of the ancients remained at the time and the plan then was to sacrifice the new life, not that 25% or so. That 25% was sundered in the process. So even if I were to be charitable here and assume that their plan was to redirect all that soul aether to the sacrificed inside Zodiark, it'd imply a change in plan in and of itself. If not? Then we can no longer rely on that source to inform the what of what was being sacrificed. All we know is that 1) it included entities bearing souls (animals at a minimum) and 2) which Venat's faction thought may suffice to inherit the star (could range anywhere from a familiar of reasonable intelligence to ancients.)

but I think most would agree it suggest that more than small animals were going to be sacrificed in Amaurot.

Sure, but it nonetheless leaves open quite a broad spectrum of possibilities...

Yes, but Venat's words suggest that the method was also wrong. If the method was irrelevant due to the nature of the new life, then it wouldn't have to be mentioned.

Again, because she has an end-point in mind on where it would lead to. In Anamnesis Anyder in particular you can see that she grants that the Convocation means well and aims for the same as does her group, which is a prosperous future for their star. Of course in EW she's aware of what Meteion's report contained, so that's why she's stressing the value of suffering and avoiding sacrifice to reclaim life as it was.

In that case, they wouldn't need a living sacrifice, merely a sufficient concentration of aether.

At the end of the day, he's a primal. They function on aether. Souls are made up of aether - possibly a very big hit of it. Given how vague it all is we can but speculate... and again, let's say it specifically required souls, again the possibility here is that a high number of weaker ones could logically suffice to substitute out a smaller number of more potent ones. Part of why they even had to sacrifice their own, in the first place, is that the Final Days had starved them of all other possible sources of aether due to its rapid escalation.

Venat was an Ancient like the rest of them. When you have power like that, every decision affects the fate of others. It took only one depressed Ancient to almost destroy the entire universe. If a bunch of Ancients had the right to sacrifice a bunch of unborn, unwilling lives to Zodiark, Venat also had the right to do what she did.

Hmmm how does that follow? You've no real awareness of what these lives were. As I said, it's a broad spectrum of possibilities.

They were planning to sacrifice more to zodiark before Venat's faction decided to create hydaelyn to counter and stop zodiark and his followers. Emet even said that the sacrifices would not be in vain because they are hoping Zodiark can bring back all the ascians that were sacrificed to it. That was why they wanted to create the rejoining, so that they can continue where they left off and power up zodiark to defeat the whatever the finals days was and bring back their people to life.

Edit: They actually showed the scene of Ascians, in their despair, sacrificing themselves to zodiark in the hope of averting the final days which finally made Venat sunder the world. I think they create that scene specifically to show one part of Venat's reason of sundering the world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlA0lGrSRqM

This is why Emet said to our character at the end that the "past they were looking for is not the future we are building towards to" Emet understood already that their way was not the best way to defeat the final days and for the future. But he is duty bound to do what he planned to do before as the holder of the title Emet Sech. But deep inside he knew we were the best chance against the final days hence even back in shadowbringers he helped us against Elidibus to "put his friend to rest" and put his trust on us.

Yes, that's why that poster is asking about more than the 3 - the third was the planned but never materialised stage. Also that scene isn't great, because it's stylised in nature. If you want to refer to the sources on this detailing the sum total of sacrifices and what each was for, see here.

What Venat did was just as terrible as Hermes, we just need one line of her stating it and we are all good. Just one line. No need to dwell on anything like "necessary evils" or anything to keep with the theme no , just skip it. Give us more stupid rabbits.

She states it at least, by stating what she did was neither just nor kind, but what annoyed me more is the lack of any ability to rebuke her for it or at least give her the cold shoulder over it.

[EaraGrace]

I am discounting it because it has a huge problem in it: 25% of the ancients remained at the time and the plan then was to sacrifice the new life, not that 25% or so. That 25% was sundered in the process. So even if I were to be charitable here and assume that their plan was to redirect all that soul aether to the sacrificed inside Zodiark, it'd imply a change in plan in and of itself. If not? Then we can no longer rely on that source to inform the what of what was being sacrificed. All we know is that 1) it included entities bearing souls (animals at a minimum) and 2) which Venat's faction thought may suffice to inherit the star (could range anywhere from a familiar of reasonable intelligence to ancients.)

See I think we’re actually fairly close to an understanding. I just think the criterion you laid out makes the third sacrifice an abhorrent act of selfishness born out of an attempt to hide from pain, a sign both of the Ancients inability to see life beyond their own as being deserving of true moral consideration and of their refusal to accept the inevitable of suffering in the world. The former is a moral failing, the second would lead to extinction.

If Venat had told them the truth beforehand, they might not have even needed to summon Zodiark or sacrifice anyone, so i’m a bit confused on your logic here. Also, how did they give in to despair by summoning Zodiark? He was a solution. One that even we relied upon for thousands upon thousands of years. By that logic we gave into despair by summoning primals to fuel the ship, or ironworks gave in to despair by being willing to sacrifice an entire timeline aka billions of lives.

The first sentence is literally refuted by an entire voiced cutscene, the second the following voiced cutscene after it. If you want to have those answers then you may wish to go back and watch the cutscenes at the end of our time in Elpis again.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The first sentence is literally refuted by an entire voiced cutscene, the second the following voiced cutscene after it. If you want to have those answers then you may wish to go back and watch the cutscenes at the end of our time in Elpis again.

Much as is most of the peoples arguments in here and yet theres still people trying to advocate for specific arguments that are refuted time and time again by in game text. But please, link the dialogue? I need a bit of a refresher. They had no other options at the time. It wasnt giving into despair so much as giving in to wanting to save their people and their planet. Also doesnt change the fact that it was a solution that we ourselves relied upon and would be dead without it. Considering all of Venat's plan hinged on him, im curious how its just purely an act of despair and not simply, an act of wanting to save their star. Especially since we know as well, Zodiark was already a concept before the final days.