What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Rolder50]

I'm not particularly convinced they HAVE dealt with Zodiark.

This is a bit of a stretch but consider Hydaelyn sundered the world and Zodiark; splitting the source into reflections.

Then, it is pretty feasible that she remained unsundered herself while Zodiark may very much exist in multiple worlds simultaneously.
Within the realm of possibility that we only encountered the Zodiark fragment which remained in the Source

Even if this were the case, I'm not convinced the other Zodiark fragments would be a threat. The one on the source was, what, 7 or 8 times rejoined and we still trounced him. The fragments would be 1/14th original power rather then 1/2.

[Rulakir]

Said civilization had zero qualms about throwing away half their population twice over and were perfectly willing to commit genocide of every new life born into the world just so they wouldn't have to feel sorrow or despair and recluse themselves into ignorant bliss of "paradise". The rest of the Ancient population making decisions aren't exactly of high standing moral character either.

There was nothing left to use for aether other than themselves. I'm sure mass suicide wouldn't be their #1 choice had circumstances not demanded it. "...Yet oh how the star had suffered. So many species lost. The land was blighted, the waters poisoned, and even the wind had ceased to blow."

As for the new life: "Once more did our people give of themselves to Zodiark. Another half of our race sacrificed to cleanse the world; to ensure that trees and grasses and myriad tiny lives would sprout and grow and flourish." Sounds to me like the focus was on restoring ecosystems to make the star inhabitable.

Regardless, I couldn't help but notice that "new life" was not mentioned in EW as one of Venat's reasons for sundering, so I'm left to assume either that plot was dropped, the Convocation was incorrect about her motives, or that's the lie she was telling people.

So, this new life had souls and they wanted to sacrifice it to get back what they had.

The Ancients couldn't create souls, so there's no reason to believe Zodiark capable of that feat either. However, souls being randomly generated, it stands to reason there were some in the mix. The Ancients weren't vegan and they didn't consider returning to the star to be a bad thing, so they wouldn't have had a moral quandary about sacrificing a portion of flora and fauna to release their loved ones' souls from Zodiark purgatory.

[TaleraRistain]

Except as we see when we go to Elpis, even though Hades may not believe us, due to his duty of the star he takes it upon himself to investigate. Not only this but he knows he was mind wiped. It’s as simple as Venat telling him how it happened. Irregardless he would have to investigate, and this isn’t even accounting for the fact she could just simply use the echo to show him. I feel like we’re going in circles with this because people are purposely being oblivious to fairly obvious ways it could’ve been addressed.

I think people are questioning your obvious ways because there are giant holes in current knowledge about what actually happened, who tried what, and who talked to who. We don't know that she didn't talk to someone. Panda implies Azem has some sort of future sight. What if she talked to Azem and Azem said "Uh, no, do what you're doing". Maybe she confided in Elidibus or he got involved after the events of Panda. He certainly wouldn't remember. His memories were fragmented. We know she didn't tell Emet. We don't know exactly why.

[Amh_Wilzuun]

• The mighty Zodiark, which has been build up as this mighty(evil) entity over several expansions, turns out to be nothing but filler trash for the first Endwalker trial

Really?
This is the best SQ could do in terms of story after ShB?

Did people actually, like actually think that Zodiark would be the final bad? You praise ShB but one of the big lore points from that story was how Zodiark was something other than just an evil dark lord thing. He was created to stop the final days by valiant souls so it stands to reason that Zodiark is not the biggest threat in FF14 going off ShB alone.

I for one thought that Zodiark as the first trial was a bold and exciting choice, and Meteion was a strong new villain.

[TaleraRistain]

The Ancients couldn't create souls, so there's no reason to believe Zodiark capable of that feat either. However, souls being randomly generated, it stands to reason there were some in the mix. The Ancients weren't vegan and they didn't consider returning to the star to be a bad thing, so they wouldn't have had a moral quandary about sacrificing a portion of flora and fauna to release their loved ones' souls from Zodiark purgatory.

They did have a moral quandary as Ere Our Curtain Falls outlines

"The people were divided, unable to decide what to do with the future that now stretched out before them. Many wished to trade the new life which had sprung forth to reclaim those lost in sacrifice to Zodiark. No small number, however, insisted that the fate of our world should be entrusted to those selfsame freshly minted souls. All were at our wits' end."

It doesn't seem likely that they're going to debate entrusting the world to flora and fauna. Like you said, they would sacrifice without hesitation. But what would give pause? New people.

Also....why sacrifice at all? Their people are lost. It's very sad. Move on. Humanity learned how to do this after the Sundering. They couldn't.

[Amh_Wilzuun]

[[Spoilers Ahead]]

I am very bored of this "End of the World" anime crap... FFXIV used to have a mature story with inter-state politics playing a primary role, skilfully crafting allusions to real life. The Garlean Empire was made out in the end to be a straight out "bad guy", rather then the rich contextualisation they received in both ARR and Heavensward. It was a mature, gritty story where BOTH sides were doing evil things and played well with the dynamic of the beast tribes, displaced from their lands and desperately relying on their primals to bring them deliverance from poverty.

This story was boring and boiled down to "Hermes's love doll got sad and tried to blow up the Universe".

I'm confused by this comment. In ARR and such the Garleans are literally just darth vader and the gang and are the evil bad. In EW they actually humanize the Garlean citizenry.

[SDaemon]

As for the new life: "Once more did our people give of themselves to Zodiark. Another half of our race sacrificed to cleanse the world; to ensure that trees and grasses and myriad tiny lives would sprout and grow and flourish." Sounds to me like the focus was on restoring ecosystems to make the star inhabitable.

1/2 was given so Zodiark could shroud the world in aether to stop the Final Days, the 2nd set of 1/2 their population was off'd to restore the planet to how it was before. The final offering was to be the new life growing in the world and was to be a trade, their unwilling lives for the lives they shoved into Zodiark.

[linayar]

Regardless, I couldn't help but notice that "new life" was not mentioned in EW as one of Venat's reasons for sundering, so I'm left to assume either that plot was dropped, the Convocation was incorrect about her motives, or that's the lie she was telling people.

The new life is part of it, just not the sole reason.

Venat: "To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn't wisdom. It is weakness. No paradise is without its shadows. If we cannot accept this truth and learn from our pain, then our plight shall be repeated."

[Momo_Kozuki]

snip

You forgot that there were people who witnessed Emet, Hyppo (forgot his name), Venat, and a so-called Azem's familiar entered the lv77 dungeon. People only knew that there was some problems with Kaitos that deleted memories of Emet, Hyppo and Hermes - the culprit himself. Even if Venat shows up and tells the truth, then people will just think that her memory got fumbled by the memory wiping device. Let's say Emet, Hyppo believed her and try to rally their people. It might make some noises, but the ultimate end is that people would just conclude these three having unreliable memories due to the incident. After all, it was 1 person who knew the truth, 2 people who had zero memory about what happened that just followed the flow vs the whole race who just wants to play god to perfect their star. And obviously, WoL could not stay there for too long to re-tell them the stories cuz the time-travel magic is running out right after the lv77 dungeon.



So Venat had two choices: try to change things, face a lot of opposition cuz no one trusts her, which could led to a future where she had zero mean to save the star, be it with the Ancient or with the new mankind. Or just make sure everything happening the same according to WoL's future, which she certainly believed would happen because WoL time-travelling to Elpis with her magic on him was the undeniable proof that that the sundering method was the right path that she needed to take. She needed Hermes in the 14th so that he would eventually contribute to the summoning of Hermes. She needed Emet to stay with deleted memory so that he would become the melancholic unsundered Ascian who built the Garlean Empire, which researched Black rose, which resulted in G'hara time travel to the First, which results in Elibidus getting absorbed by the tower who later provided information and a mean to travel to the past, then Fanadiel who opted for Zodiark's destruction, which led to WoL to the moon where he heard the word Elpis from the Watcher and received aid from the moon rabbits. And she needed to sunder the world so that everything above would happen, for a fighting chance against the threat nested in the edge of the universe.



Remember that she actually tried to reason with the Ancients, who was so absorbed with sacrificing to return to the blissful day instead of accepting suffering as part of their life and move on. And if you think they can "revive" the dead that easily, just look at what happened to the lamia girl who was the daughter that was killed and revived by Laskmi back in SB - an empty husk without soul. Zodiark is a band-aid for Final Days and a dead-end for the Ancient. A dead-end for the star vs a chance to fight back, Venat took the latter, and admitted there was no justice in her action.


And if you still think she just wanted to play Goddess, then what was the point of playing Goddess if your ultimate fate was the fuel for Ragnarok?

[Rulakir]

The new life is part of it, just not the sole reason.

Venat: "To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn't wisdom. It is weakness. No paradise is without its shadows. If we cannot accept this truth and learn from our pain, then our plight shall be repeated."

I'd forgotten about that, thanks for reminding me. I hated that cutscene, so I've tried not to watch it any more than necessary.

It doesn't seem likely that they're going to debate entrusting the world to flora and fauna. Like you said, they would sacrifice without hesitation. But what would give pause? New people.

You've given me something to think about now. I generally don't like to debate the third sacrifice due to lack of information. I don't know what other races existed that weren't Ancient constructs. I don't know if the Ancients would have sacrificed themselves to bring back other races either, it seems like a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario. Either they were so altruistic they did so, or they were so selfish they did not. I'd only been thinking in terms of making the star inhabitable again, in which case it wouldn't make sense to bother with anything more than the basics needed to replenish and sustain life.

My opinion is it still never should've gotten to that point. Venat wasted valuable time they could've used to prepare for the Final Days. Instead, it hit without warning and by the time they figured out how to stop it they had no choice but to use themselves as primal fodder (something she didn't attempt to stop either). I can't imagine knowing what she did and not informing anyone in a position to do something about it, it's unconscionable to me.

Also....why sacrifice at all? Their people are lost. It's very sad. Move on. Humanity learned how to do this after the Sundering. They couldn't.

Either you've never lost anyone or handled it much differently than most people. Humanity didn't learn anything. The 8UC timeline suffered far less than the Final Days and still labored for two centuries to undo it with the belief that in doing so their existence would be erased. Post sundering and 12k years into the future, people were still willing to sacrifice themselves to return to the past over moving forward. Had current Etheirys suffered the Final Days more substantially I've no doubt they would've ended up the same as well.