What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Theodric]

It felt all very surface level and also fell apart for me when I looked deeper. By the time I watched another scion stand there with a determined look on their face giving a monologue about hope I had checked out already.

An apt summary. It's as if the game shifted from appealing to players who read between the lines and piece things together to make sense of a deeper narrative...to directly pandering to those who burst into tears the moment another fake death happens whilst sad music plays only to rush to Reddit to tell everybody how they were 'screaming' and 'crying' and they 'can't even right now'.

Meanwhile the characters and factions that actually do face incomprehensible levels of loss and dread are urged to just get over it whilst desperate comparisons are made to pretend as if the loss of the likes of Moenbryda is anywhere near as tragic as the loss of literally every single member of one's family, their friends, neighbours and every single person they have ever known.

It's why I'm raising an eyebrow at the implication that people 'just don't like venat' when the criticism is aimed at more than just a single character!

[OhNooo]

An apt summary. It's as if the game shifted from appealing to players who read between the lines and piece things together to make sense of a deeper narrative...to directly pandering to those who burst into tears the moment another fake death happens whilst sad music plays only to rush to Reddit to tell everybody how they were 'screaming' and 'crying' and they 'can't even right now'.

A thousand times this. I don't want to keep bringing up HW but I still maintain that it's the most well-rounded story expansion for me and I wish they would go back to a similar localized story with some fantasy but not too over the top. EW definitely felt over the top for me, and I felt...for lack of a better word...kind of like my intelligence was being insulted? Lol that sounds harsh to say but I just got the impression that they felt like they could just throw anything at the playerbase and they'd eat it all up, which is kind of the truth if we're basing it off of the reviews from reddit and other places. I felt like I was the odd person out seeing all of the comments about people crying and thinking it topped Shadowbringers.

But I'm glad that there is at least a place where people can express their opinions and have a civil discussion for the most part, because trying to post contrary opinions about the story on reddit will mostly just get you down-voted to oblivion and sometimes harassed in dms telling you to go back to wow even though you've never played it lol.

[Theodric]

A thousand times this. I don't want to keep bringing up HW but I still maintain that it's the most well-rounded story expansion for me and I wish they would go back to a similar localized story with some fantasy but not too over the top. EW definitely felt over the top for me, and I felt...for lack of a better word...kind of like my intelligence was being insulted? Lol that sounds harsh to say but I just got the impression that they felt like they could just throw anything at the playerbase and they'd eat it all up, which is kind of the truth if we're basing it off of the reviews from reddit and other places. I felt like I was the odd person out seeing all of the comments about people crying and thinking it topped Shadowbringers.

But I'm glad that there is at least a place where people can express their opinions and have a civil discussion for the most part, because trying to post contrary opinions about the story on reddit will mostly just get you down-voted to oblivion and sometimes harassed in dms telling you to go back to wow even though you've never played it lol.

The writer responsible for Heavensward went to work on FFXVI, apparently. I hope that means that he'll return to work on FFXIV once FFXVI releases. EW felt like it wanted me to not think too much about the implications or consequences of what was happening at the time in a way that was far removed from what previous expansions had done in regards to noting that the various conflicts and character struggles were but a clash of ideals and different perspectives.

I'm pleased, at least, that we're apparently going back to becoming an adventurer again. Hopefully that'll involve scaling back the situation and distancing our character from being the saviour of the entire universe...to something a bit more humble and relatable. I don't play games to stroke the ego of either myself or my character, so the constant talk about how 'amazing' and 'heroic' my character is simply doesn't do much for me. Each to their own, though!

As for Reddit, the mere existence of a downvote system is unfortunately something that is readily abused. Especially in an era where many seek to echo whatever opinion will earn them upvotes for fear of going against the grain.

[Nilroreo]

...

This. I among many others I'm sure derive my enjoyment from how well everything comes together, as well as my own personal enjoyment of what's happening on screen. my biggest issue with Endwalker is that it didn't quite stick the landing on both fronts and heavily prioritizes the fun aspect of the game's narrative over the practicality of anything that's going on.

To give an example, Heavensward which is my personal favorite expansion has this moment towards the end where Hraesvelgr of his own volition hands us his eye in a historic turning point that calls back to the conclusion of whatever feud the Dravanians and Ishgardians initially had ages ago. Both this conflict and the dragonsong war are ended with Hraesvelgr joining hands with another mortal becoming living symbols of unity between the land and the heavens. the scene also makes sense practically because it's already been long established that dragon eyes are vessels to a near infinite reserve of aether, and azure dragoons are empowered by use of this power. this whole segment is both fun to watch, and it doesn't make you question the logistics of what's going on.

Compare all of that with a scene towards the end of Endwalker where you summon Emet and Hythlodeus to summon a bed of flowers, Meteion gets sad, and Emet says "These Elpis blooms serve as proof that this realm is not utterly devoid of hope. No more can you deny its power. No more is yours the dominion of despair," then suddenly we can just bring everyone back with no repercussions... but why? what's stopping her from just undoing everyone again? What is even going on? I know I'm supposed to feel happy/sad cuz the scene is clearly trying its hardest to illicit an emotion out of me here, but something about this explanation just isn't clicking with me.

Ultimately, I feel the story ventured too deep into fanservice territory this time around and allowed sentimentality to drive the story in place of logic. I mean, I won't lie, they did a damn fine job on that end. If all they wanted to do was give me an adrenaine rush during the last quarter of the final boss, or during the badass fight with Zenos at the edge of the universe etc., then they succeeded. I just wish I could say I loved the expansions story beyond what it had to offer on the surface level.

[OhNooo]

Ultimately, I feel the story ventured too deep into fanservice territory this time around and allowed sentimentality to drive the story in place of logic.

Agreed. Speaking of fan service, even though I do find the ancients interesting, I really don't think they should've had us go back in time to see them at all. It probably would've made more sense to have us use the echo in some way to peer into the unsundered world. But I'm guessing they did that because they knew a lot of people would love it and as soon as I saw those robes with the masks, I knew the rp community was gonna have a field day lol.

And yes, comparing the tone and overall vibe to the storytelling in HW...the fact that to this day when I walk into Ishgard and get this fond little smile and feel like I'm coming home...that says a lot about the impact the expansion has for the whole game. I get so excited when I see new players streaming the game and getting to Ishgard for the first time. There was definitely a more nuanced tone in HW that worked very well, and in my opinion, this more subtle tone turned out to be way more effective for me than the writing style in EW.

One of my favorite scenes is when Estinien is recounting his experience of being taken over by Nidhogg; the irony of two beings basically living in each other's minds, and both of them happen to be consumed by the craving for revenge for what each one of their kind did to the other...it's just so incredibly well done in my opinion. On the other hand, when I look at several of the scenes in EW, you have these emotional scenes with sad or inspirational music that may get you excited or get a reaction out of you at the time but then it just feels kind of hollow when it's over.

ETA: For example: the body swap scene. I remember being on the edge of my seat thinking wow things are finally about to start getting real...and then right when I think something is about to go down here comes Fandaniel like nope that's all you get lol and I was left feeling like they had dangled a small taste of something with potential in front of me and left me feeling confused about the whole point of introducing it in the first place. At first I thought it was going to be brought up again later...but nope we never heard about it ever again.

[Nilroreo]

For example: the body swap scene. I remember being on the edge of my seat thinking wow things are finally about to start getting real...and then right when I think something is about to go down here comes Fandaniel like nope that's all you get lol and I was left feeling like they had dangled a small taste of something with potential in front of me and left me feeling confused about the whole point of introducing it in the first place. At first I thought it was going to be brought up again later...but nope we never heard about it ever again.

Yup lol! This was Zenos time to shine after taking a backseat for a good while. The fact that he immediately blows his cover, gets tackled to the ground, and basically laughs and points at our hopelessness was kind of a tone killer. I'm not exactly begging for major character deaths here, but couldn't someone at least get injured as a result of this? Zenos's entire goal this time is to piss us off hard enough to get us to fight him in a world shattering battle. You'd think he'd want to groom us for our coming battle by give us a little more incentive to go after him, but eh..

[OhNooo]

The fact that he immediately blows his cover, gets tackled to the ground, and basically laughs and points at our hopelessness was kind of a tone killer.

Right. And I can't be the only one who thought it was far-fetched that all we had to do is throw a knife in our non-magical ability having body and it immediately dissipated the avatar. I was like wait what lol

[Theodric]

Yup lol! This was Zenos time to shine after taking a backseat for a good while. The fact that he immediately blows his cover, gets tackled to the ground, and basically laughs and points at our hopelessness was kind of a tone killer.

It seems to be a common problem, unfortunately. Sometimes there's months or even years of build up to a specific moment...and then it almost always wraps up very neatly. Remember how it was portrayed as very dangerous for the Scions to try and return to the Source after finding themselves trapped in the First? Not only do they all conveniently get there unscathed, there's absolutely no lasting consequences to speak of.

A large part of the charm of the earlier worldbuilding involved the weight to various decisions and narrative consequences. JRPG's - and previous Final Fantasy games - weren't afraid to be bold and controversial on many fronts, so I remain baffled as to why FFXIV in particular opts to play things very safe.

[Nilroreo]

It seems to be a common problem, unfortunately. Sometimes there's months or even years of build up to a specific moment...and then it almost always wraps up very neatly. Remember how it was portrayed as very dangerous for the Scions to try and return to the Source after finding themselves trapped in the First? Not only do they all conveniently get there unscathed, there's absolutely no lasting consequences to speak of.

Actually, in this case, I didn't have a major issue with this sequence. They presented an issue with their prolonged stay on the first and G'raha urgently scrambled to find a solution. I never expected any of them to not get back unscathed...except for G'raha.

Imo, 5.3 should've been where his character made his final exit from the story. At the end of the Crystal tower Raid, Everyone decides to strive towards a future where the crystal tower can serve as a symbol of hope and prosperity for future generations. Fast forward to Shadowbringers and G'raha does just that, becoming a sort of father figure for the remnants of a dying world in need of guidance with the crystal tower itself becoming a bastion of safety. He fuses with the Crystal tower to prolong his life and see his mission to completion, and throughout the patches, bloodlets himself which somehow perverts his body further. By the end, he successfully creates auracites that can safely get us back home and then proceeds to fully become one with the crystal tower after all is said and done. G'raha literally fusing with the symbol of hope after having successfully saved the First from complete annihilation was a beautiful end to his character... or atleast it wouldve been had they not dragged him back to the first, had him hijack his own sleeping body (they say both personalities "blended," but cmon, how is this not weird?) reducing him to a submissive shy sidekick.

Something that never quite sat right with me is why he would even want to come back to the source. He's lived for nearly 80ish years on the first, built an entire society from scratch and basically raised a daughter there. For all intents and purposes, the First was the closest thing to a real home he's got, but still decides to come back with us.

A large part of the charm of the earlier worldbuilding involved the weight to various decisions and narrative consequences. JRPG's - and previous Final Fantasy games - weren't afraid to be bold and controversial on many fronts, so I remain baffled as to why FFXIV in particular opts to play things very safe.

You know, it's funny, while I do appreciate the inclusion of the trust system, I feel it might've unintentionally influenced the devs towards minimizing casualties as much as possible. Can't have Y'shtola die for real next time cuz we'd be one DPS short incase Alisaie or Estinien arent available.

[Latarma]

Yup lol! This was Zenos time to shine after taking a backseat for a good while. The fact that he immediately blows his cover, gets tackled to the ground, and basically laughs and points at our hopelessness was kind of a tone killer. I'm not exactly begging for major character deaths here, but couldn't someone at least get injured as a result of this? Zenos's entire goal this time is to piss us off hard enough to get us to fight him in a world shattering battle. You'd think he'd want to groom us for our coming battle by give us a little more incentive to go after him, but eh..

they should have had Zenos in our body attack the other scions we show up in the "other" body and have to fight ourself with the scions after a bit Zenos is like i'm board and leaves