What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[linayar]

Yes, and why did they object to it pre-sundering? Because they thought the ancients were on a path to repeat their doom. The entire reasoning for surrendering the star over to the new lives ties into that.

Yes, but Venat's words suggest that the method was also wrong. If the method was irrelevant due to the nature of the new life, then it wouldn't have to be mentioned.

And the latter part is a non sequitur. It would only need to provide sufficient aether for it, as it is aether Zodiark required. Again this is accounted for in the part of their plan where Zodiark stimulated the planet's natural vitality until it was bursting with new life - no doubt on account of his aspect of darkness. So it may be a case where the quantity here would do the trick.

In that case, they wouldn't need a living sacrifice, merely a sufficient concentration of aether.

[Garet]

Yes, but Venat's words suggest that the method was also wrong. If the method was irrelevant due to the nature of the new life, then it wouldn't have to be mentioned.

In that case, they wouldn't need a living sacrifice, merely a sufficient concentration of aether.

From what I can recall Venat and her group did not entirely opposed the creation of zodiark. Only after zodiark failed and the other ascians wanted to sacrifice more people that venat and her group opposed it. Zodiark was only a stopgap measure and not something that can reach and kill meteion at that point. Zodiark shielded and revitalized the ancient world temporarily but when despair was again starting to creep in the solution of sacrificing more to the point of extinction seemed pointless to Venat.

Even Meteion bragged to us as we made our way to her that even if we were to create another zodiark like shield that she will just wait for the shield it creates to go down eventually and her despair will eventually overwhelm our planet. Hence Venat created the moon ark in case the WoL cannot defeat Meteion because eventually the shield provided by zodiark willl go down even without Fandaniel's schemes which made it go down earlier that estimated.

[KizuyaKatogami]

All these people bashing the ancients for sacrificing etc. I’m really curious then on how you all feel with Venat’s backup plan being to sacrifice all of the other shards and only have the people on the source survive. So much for all of her “children” hm? Or how about we talk about ironworks, instead of moving forward, decided to mess with time and jeopardize billions of people just to being 1 person back to life. So much for the sundered moving forward and not being tied to the past. Oh but i’m sure this is just one of many examples of it being perfectly okay when the protagonists do it, but when the antagonists do it it’s wrong.

As far as Venat telling people goes, we at the very least know she didn’t even tell the truth to her own people who were going to sacrifice themselves for Hydaelyn. As per the anamnesis cutscene, it seems they didn’t even know she was going to die or that they would be sacrificed. But also, i’m not sure why people are acting like she was some horrible person the ancients hated and would never believe? She’s an ex-convocation member. She’s friends with one of the most popular ones. She used to be Azem. There are many many ways she could’ve gone about telling them. About the whole “well she talked them later on” yes, she talked them after the fact, after the planet was dying, and they had lost their loved ones. The fact is she could’ve prevented all of that completely. Instead she lost hope for her own people, and placed it in a single person. Of whom by the way, is part of a group of people(sundered) who give into despair just as easy if not even easier than the ancients did. So i’m not sure why that’s even an argument. We have both garlemald and thavnair for that. Just because our plot armor scions don’t give into it doesn’t change the fact 90% of the sundered would give into despair just as easily.

[Garet]

All these people bashing the ancients for sacrificing etc. I’m really curious then on how you all feel with Venat’s backup plan being to sacrifice all of the other shards and only have the people on the source survive. So much for all of her “children” hm? Or how about we talk about ironworks, instead of moving forward, decided to mess with time and jeopardize billions of people just to being 1 person back to life. So much for the sundered moving forward and not being tied to the past. Oh but i’m sure this is just one of many examples of it being perfectly okay when the protagonists do it, but when the antagonists do it it’s wrong.

Venat is not a god. Sure the ascians may seem godlike to normal eorzeans but they are still people that are just more advanced etc. The source was the priority because it is "The Source" wherein if it gets destroyed all the other reflections gets destroyed along with it. And if it is saved then all will be saved. In the event that the WoL do fail she wanted to save as many as she can from the source so that our people will not be extinct. If Venat is a god that has the power to save everyone then she would have the power to end meteion back when we first encountered her in elpis. Meteion would not have escaped Venat, Hydo and Emet.

Hydaelyn and Zodiark are just powerful primals as well that may seem like a god but really isn't. And they are certainly not all powerful cosmic beings that can create and destroy universes.

In the end, Venat's faith of what she has seen so far of our WoL will be able to defeat Meteion paid off which is better than sacrificing her entire people to zodiark who may keep meteion at bay for a few thousand more years but will inevitably get overwhelmed as well.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Venat is not a god. Sure the ascians may seem godlike to normal eorzeans but they are still people that are just more advanced etc. The source was the priority because it is "The Source" wherein if it gets destroyed all the other reflections gets destroyed along with it. And if it is saved then all will be saved. In the event that the WoL do fail she wanted to save as many as she can from the source so that our people will not be extinct. If Venat is a god that has the power to save everyone then she would have the power to end meteion back when we first encountered her in elpis. Meteion would not have escaped Venat, Hydo and Emet.

Hydaelyn and Zodiark are just powerful primals as well that may seem like a god but really isn't. And they are certainly not all powerful cosmic beings that can create and destroy universes.

In the end, Venat's faith of what she has seen so far of our WoL will be able to defeat Meteion paid off which is better than sacrificing her entire people to zodiark who may keep meteion at bay for a few thousand more years but will inevitably get overwhelmed as well.

You’re assuming their only plan would be to keep feeding Zodiark. Again, i don’t know how many times i need to repeat myself. She isn’t a god no, but she had KNOWLEDGE of what was going to happen. She purposely kept this a SECRET.She only really confronted them AFTER the final days hit. I don’t know what’s so hard to understand. She did have the power to try and stop Meteion. She chose not to do it. She instead did the very thing the theme goes against and gave up hope on her own people. That’s the problem with all of this. We can argue night and day of oh well her telling them wouldn’t change a thing but we have so much proof they would have been able to do something. They even have a literal entire facility they could use to hone their dynamis.

[Garet]

You’re assuming their only plan would be to keep feeding Zodiark. Again, i don’t know how many times i need to repeat myself. She isn’t a god no, but she had KNOWLEDGE of what was going to happen. She purposely kept this a SECRET.She only really confronted them AFTER the final days hit. I don’t know what’s so hard to understand. She did have the power to try and stop Meteion. She chose not to do it. She instead did the very thing the theme goes against and gave up hope on her own people. That’s the problem with all of this. We can argue night and day of oh well her telling them wouldn’t change a thing but we have so much proof they would have been able to do something. They even have a literal entire facility they could use to hone their dynamis.

She gave out some explanation to our character on why she cannot change the past too much after we got out of the dungeon that mind wiped emet and the others. First was that reminding the other ascians will not only make Hermes remember everything and go against them again but also might change the course of history for the worse.

There is a reason why in a lot of stories that deal with time travel they always say not to mess with the past even with good intention because it can alter things for the worse. Flashpoint paradox of DC comics is a perfect example.

The other theory of time travel that shows lately try to apply is that changing the past will not alter the future but will instead create an alternate timeline (Marvel's Avengers Endgame). While the timeline one originally came from will remain intact.

Anyway. As I posted earlier. Venat's faith on our WoL paid off so definitely better than getting eaten to power up zodiark only to die to the final days evenutally. We even got to redeem Meteion and Hermes this way

[Lauront]

I think it very compelling. Emet being willing to, and in fact planning on, sacrificing human rejoined souls says much about the lengths they were willing to go to to bring back those they lost. Likewise, you’re free to disregard it or insist that the plan was completely different in the past,

I am discounting it because it has a huge problem in it: 25% of the ancients remained at the time and the plan then was to sacrifice the new life, not that 25% or so. That 25% was sundered in the process. So even if I were to be charitable here and assume that their plan was to redirect all that soul aether to the sacrificed inside Zodiark, it'd imply a change in plan in and of itself. If not? Then we can no longer rely on that source to inform the what of what was being sacrificed. All we know is that 1) it included entities bearing souls (animals at a minimum) and 2) which Venat's faction thought may suffice to inherit the star (could range anywhere from a familiar of reasonable intelligence to ancients.)

but I think most would agree it suggest that more than small animals were going to be sacrificed in Amaurot.

Sure, but it nonetheless leaves open quite a broad spectrum of possibilities...

Yes, but Venat's words suggest that the method was also wrong. If the method was irrelevant due to the nature of the new life, then it wouldn't have to be mentioned.

Again, because she has an end-point in mind on where it would lead to. In Anamnesis Anyder in particular you can see that she grants that the Convocation means well and aims for the same as does her group, which is a prosperous future for their star. Of course in EW she's aware of what Meteion's report contained, so that's why she's stressing the value of suffering and avoiding sacrifice to reclaim life as it was.

In that case, they wouldn't need a living sacrifice, merely a sufficient concentration of aether.

At the end of the day, he's a primal. They function on aether. Souls are made up of aether - possibly a very big hit of it. Given how vague it all is we can but speculate... and again, let's say it specifically required souls, again the possibility here is that a high number of weaker ones could logically suffice to substitute out a smaller number of more potent ones. Part of why they even had to sacrifice their own, in the first place, is that the Final Days had starved them of all other possible sources of aether due to its rapid escalation.

Venat was an Ancient like the rest of them. When you have power like that, every decision affects the fate of others. It took only one depressed Ancient to almost destroy the entire universe. If a bunch of Ancients had the right to sacrifice a bunch of unborn, unwilling lives to Zodiark, Venat also had the right to do what she did.

Hmmm how does that follow? You've no real awareness of what these lives were. As I said, it's a broad spectrum of possibilities.

They were planning to sacrifice more to zodiark before Venat's faction decided to create hydaelyn to counter and stop zodiark and his followers. Emet even said that the sacrifices would not be in vain because they are hoping Zodiark can bring back all the ascians that were sacrificed to it. That was why they wanted to create the rejoining, so that they can continue where they left off and power up zodiark to defeat the whatever the finals days was and bring back their people to life.

Edit: They actually showed the scene of Ascians, in their despair, sacrificing themselves to zodiark in the hope of averting the final days which finally made Venat sunder the world. I think they create that scene specifically to show one part of Venat's reason of sundering the world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlA0lGrSRqM

This is why Emet said to our character at the end that the "past they were looking for is not the future we are building towards to" Emet understood already that their way was not the best way to defeat the final days and for the future. But he is duty bound to do what he planned to do before as the holder of the title Emet Sech. But deep inside he knew we were the best chance against the final days hence even back in shadowbringers he helped us against Elidibus to "put his friend to rest" and put his trust on us.

Yes, that's why that poster is asking about more than the 3 - the third was the planned but never materialised stage. Also that scene isn't great, because it's stylised in nature. If you want to refer to the sources on this detailing the sum total of sacrifices and what each was for, see here.

What Venat did was just as terrible as Hermes, we just need one line of her stating it and we are all good. Just one line. No need to dwell on anything like "necessary evils" or anything to keep with the theme no , just skip it. Give us more stupid rabbits.

She states it at least, by stating what she did was neither just nor kind, but what annoyed me more is the lack of any ability to rebuke her for it or at least give her the cold shoulder over it.

[EaraGrace]

I am discounting it because it has a huge problem in it: 25% of the ancients remained at the time and the plan then was to sacrifice the new life, not that 25% or so. That 25% was sundered in the process. So even if I were to be charitable here and assume that their plan was to redirect all that soul aether to the sacrificed inside Zodiark, it'd imply a change in plan in and of itself. If not? Then we can no longer rely on that source to inform the what of what was being sacrificed. All we know is that 1) it included entities bearing souls (animals at a minimum) and 2) which Venat's faction thought may suffice to inherit the star (could range anywhere from a familiar of reasonable intelligence to ancients.)

See I think we’re actually fairly close to an understanding. I just think the criterion you laid out makes the third sacrifice an abhorrent act of selfishness born out of an attempt to hide from pain, a sign both of the Ancients inability to see life beyond their own as being deserving of true moral consideration and of their refusal to accept the inevitable of suffering in the world. The former is a moral failing, the second would lead to extinction.

If Venat had told them the truth beforehand, they might not have even needed to summon Zodiark or sacrifice anyone, so i’m a bit confused on your logic here. Also, how did they give in to despair by summoning Zodiark? He was a solution. One that even we relied upon for thousands upon thousands of years. By that logic we gave into despair by summoning primals to fuel the ship, or ironworks gave in to despair by being willing to sacrifice an entire timeline aka billions of lives.

The first sentence is literally refuted by an entire voiced cutscene, the second the following voiced cutscene after it. If you want to have those answers then you may wish to go back and watch the cutscenes at the end of our time in Elpis again.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The first sentence is literally refuted by an entire voiced cutscene, the second the following voiced cutscene after it. If you want to have those answers then you may wish to go back and watch the cutscenes at the end of our time in Elpis again.

Much as is most of the peoples arguments in here and yet theres still people trying to advocate for specific arguments that are refuted time and time again by in game text. But please, link the dialogue? I need a bit of a refresher. They had no other options at the time. It wasnt giving into despair so much as giving in to wanting to save their people and their planet. Also doesnt change the fact that it was a solution that we ourselves relied upon and would be dead without it. Considering all of Venat's plan hinged on him, im curious how its just purely an act of despair and not simply, an act of wanting to save their star. Especially since we know as well, Zodiark was already a concept before the final days.

[EaraGrace]

Much as is most of the peoples arguments in here and yet theres still people trying to advocate for specific arguments that are refuted time and time again by in game text. But please, link the dialogue? I need a bit of a refresher. They had no other options at the time. It wasnt giving into despair so much as giving in to wanting to save their people and their planet. Also doesnt change the fact that it was a solution that we ourselves relied upon and would be dead without it. Considering all of Venat's plan hinged on him, im curious how its just purely an act of despair and not simply, an act of wanting to save their star. Especially since we know as well, Zodiark was already a concept before the final days.

This series of cutscenes is what you’re looking for.

https://youtu.be/C8ngZGj-f0o

And the issue is not with Zodiarks existence, but how the Ancients were growing to rely and venerate him as a means to protect and sustain their “paradise.” There is a very large gap between finding a solution to a calamity, and finding a solution to suffering or fear itself. One is a realistic goal that won’t compromise one’s ability to find a way forward, the other is a hollow goal that will inevitably fail and leave them with nothing. When Meteion describes the civilization she found that eschewed all suffering and instead sought only joy, the end result was they lost the will to love as their lives held no meaning to them. When she described a society that worshipped a benevolent deity, what did she say ended up happening? The deity killed them, and then itself.

To summarize, his creation was not an act of despair, but his death or failure would leave them with nothing but despair.

This is a species here that faced near total devastation of their planet and their own people. If we're talking about the exchange of souls that went into some entities born of their creation magicks, it is plainly obvious to me why they'd consider the option and exercise a preference for their own people and perform an exchange of the souls held in limbo in Zodiark, particularly since these familiars were rather more childlike entities compared to them and in need of a lot of handholding if they were to inherit the star. If it's ancients for ancients? Then I'd agree that such a course would be contentious but unless and until the devs take the time to clarify it, I maintain it is shrouded in ambiguity.

See here’s where we get spicy. The moral consideration of a life should not, cannot, be dependent solely on whether it is as intelligent as the being it has come in contact with. An alien race of super geniuses is not allowed morally to slaughter and enslave humans just because they were less intelligent. And placing a preference for your own people over the lives and rights of others is a dark road.