Final Fantasy 14 Players trying WOW?

[Shurrikhan]

It's a matter of degree that actually has significant effect.

As most matters of degree will. I'm just pointing out that it's commensurate to that game's take on what having "completed" a place's open world content looks like. Like you, I'd prefer earlier unlocks (or, remaining requirements being reduced over time), but that design paradigm isn't 'wrong' so much as simply suiting a different context.

If you were made to do it without flight once, then that's great. If this is a repeatable quest, then there's no reason to block flying to get there again. Make all the dangers be present at the quest site so you'll still have to fight there when you drop down.

Ideally, I'd agree with you, but that's also badly limiting. Imagine, for instance, a zone with many distinct sections with various dangers bordering them. If normally going down south to a few world quests in the Ruins area required that I first take a boat down the river, surviving croc attacks to even get there, or pass through dense jungle rife with panthers, that's still a (enjoyable, imo) component of the open world's dangers that obviously isn't going to be suitably reproducible in each separate activity. Much of the interest of the open world is its connections, its pathing, its optimizing around risks and time taken. All that is gone if you reduce everything therein to isolated activities. That's kind of what separates open world play from our tiny square or circle typical instances in the first place.

To back up just a bit:

My preferred model, again, is for the open world to be designed to be interesting even under whatever particular tools, ground and flying mounts included (though I'd always go the way of GW2's Griffin over "true", WoW/XIV-like, physics-less free flight), a player may have. It should feel like a playground and optimizing to reduce time or risk should be a real thing, but that requires also it not be simply a single, cheap solution (like limitless flight in a world without aerial threats).

Few MMOs manage that, period, and not just because they letter wreck it with unfettered flight; for many (imo, XIV included) there was little to nothing there to begin with. But, in the few instances where we've seen decent examples of world design, it looks really lucrative, and I'd hate to see that lost over some assumed obligation that everything be made as quick as possible (i.e., that because flight could exist, it should exist, and should exist asap). In that ideal world, I probably wouldn't lock flight behind grinds, but I might well make it a rare mount for which that flight is the only unique power, and I'd try to futureproof the zone around players' eventually acquiring it (as much to give them more fun in the joy of movement they might have via that flight as to curtail what elements they'd otherwise degrade for themselves).

[linayar]

As most matters of degree will. I'm just pointing out that it's commensurate to that game's take on what having "completed" a place's open world content looks like. Like you, I'd prefer earlier unlocks (or, remaining requirements being reduced over time), but that design paradigm isn't 'wrong' so much as simply suiting a different context.

I don't think I've ever argued over whether it's right or wrong. I simply don't like it because grounding me to such an extent does not make me appreciate the zone/the world, but actually does the opposite. But it obviously works for them, which is why I don't see them changing it.

Ideally, I'd agree with you, but that's also badly limiting. Imagine, for instance, a zone with many distinct sections with various dangers bordering them. If normally going down south to a few world quests in the Ruins area required that I first take a boat down the river, surviving croc attacks to even get there, or pass through dense jungle rife with panthers, that's still a (enjoyable, imo) component of the open world's dangers that obviously isn't going to be suitably reproducible in each separate activity. Much of the interest of the open world is its connections, its pathing, its optimizing around risks and time taken. All that is gone if you reduce everything therein to isolated activities. That's kind of what separates open world play from our tiny square or circle typical instances in the first place.

I deally, that would be the case. In reality, from my own personal experience, none of that matters any more within the first week of exploring the zone. As soon as I know where to go and the awe and wonder of seeing a new zone has worn off, it's just how much of a straight line I can make to my destination. And since I don't pvp, there is minimal danger, especially with enough gear upgrades.

To back up just a bit:

My preferred model, again, is for the open world to be designed to be interesting even under whatever particular tools, ground and flying mounts included (though I'd always go the way of GW2's Griffin over "true", WoW/XIV-like, physics-less free flight), a player may have. It should feel like a playground and optimizing to reduce time or risk should be a real thing, but that requires also it not be simply a single, cheap solution (like limitless flight in a world without aerial threats).

Few MMOs manage that, period, and not just because they letter wreck it with unfettered flight; for many (imo, XIV included) there was little to nothing there to begin with. But, in the few instances where we've seen decent examples of world design, it looks really lucrative, and I'd hate to see that lost over some assumed obligation that everything be made as quick as possible (i.e., that because flight could exist, it should exist, and should exist asap). In that ideal world, I probably wouldn't lock flight behind grinds, but I might well make it a rare mount for which that flight is the only unique power, and I'd try to futureproof the zone around players' eventually acquiring it (as much to give them more fun in the joy of movement they might have via that flight as to curtail what elements they'd otherwise degrade for themselves).

And that's the thing, for me, grounding me for months in the hopes of getting me to enjoy the zone more doesn't work when all I'm doing are dailies and there is nothing interesting on the way to those dailies.

I enjoyed the zone the first time through and unlocking flight sooner would allow me to enjoy it more. That's why, even though FFXIV's zones are more boring in terms of having things to do for me (I don't care for hunts/fates/gathering, maps only with FC, beast tribes depends on the mood), I enjoy them a whole lot more than WoW's zones just in doing MSQ and unlocking flight and then flying around.

[Xtro99]

I don't think I've ever argued over whether it's right or wrong. I simply don't like it because grounding me to such an extent does not make me appreciate the zone/the world, but actually does the opposite. But it obviously works for them, which is why I don't see them changing it.

I deally, that would be the case. In reality, from my own personal experience, none of that matters any more within the first week of exploring the zone. As soon as I know where to go and the awe and wonder of seeing a new zone has worn off, it's just how much of a straight line I can make to my destination. And since I don't pvp, there is minimal danger, especially with enough gear upgrades.

And that's the thing, for me, grounding me for months in the hopes of getting me to enjoy the zone more doesn't work when all I'm doing are dailies and there is nothing interesting on the way to those dailies.

I enjoyed the zone the first time through and unlocking flight sooner would allow me to enjoy it more. That's why, even though FFXIV's zones are more boring in terms of having things to do for me (I don't care for hunts/fates/gathering, maps only with FC, beast tribes depends on the mood), I enjoy them a whole lot more than WoW's zones just in doing MSQ and unlocking flight and then flying around.

At least in WoW, timegating flight for months and months is not meat for you to "enjoy" the zones, it's meant to slow you down from going from point A to point B. That's why they design zones with horrible, convoluted topography that is designed to throw you off of objectives shown in the minimap, that's why they pack every inch of the zone with mobs that can daze you off your mount, etc.

[Shurrikhan]

I simply don't like it because grounding me to such an extent does not make me appreciate the zone/the world, but actually does the opposite.

Totally fair. Again, at this point, we'd be verging into the hypothetical (an MMORPG actually doing an open world well, and what means of such would be erased/flattened away by unfettered flight).

And that's the thing, for me, grounding me for months in the hopes of getting me to enjoy the zone more doesn't work when all I'm doing are dailies and there is nothing interesting on the way to those dailies.

I enjoyed the zone the first time through and unlocking flight sooner would allow me to enjoy it more. That's why, even though FFXIV's zones are more boring in terms of having things to do for me (I don't care for hunts/fates/gathering, maps only with FC, beast tribes depends on the mood), I enjoy them a whole lot more than WoW's zones just in doing MSQ and unlocking flight and then flying around.

If there's nothing interesting on the way to those dailies, that isn't an issue of lacking a mount, flying or otherwise. (Mitigating an annoyance doesn't create a new reward; you still need something of intrinsic value to begin with the prevalence of which would then increase.) That's an issue of having a dull tarp onto which some activities have been arbitrarily laid instead of an actual world. If there's no interaction, nothing of intrinsic interest, it's not yet a world, but instead simply two to three activity types (e.g., FATEs, quest, hunts), that happen to take place in an instance with a higher player limit.

But again, that verges into hypothetical grounds for this genre.

tl;dr: I wish MMOs actually gave a damn about using their open world well instead of just, on rare occasion, lucking into some good examples of usage.

[linayar]

If there's nothing interesting on the way to those dailies, that isn't an issue of lacking a mount, flying or otherwise. (Mitigating an annoyance doesn't create a new reward; you still need something of intrinsic value to begin with the prevalence of which would then increase.) That's an issue of having a dull tarp onto which some activities have been arbitrarily laid instead of an actual world. If there's no interaction, nothing of intrinsic interest, it's not yet a world, but instead simply two to three activity types (e.g., FATEs, quest, hunts), that happen to take place in an instance with a higher player limit.

But again, that verges into hypothetical grounds for this genre.

tl;dr: I wish MMOs actually gave a damn about using their open world well instead of just, on rare occasion, lucking into some good examples of usage.

Basically, the world is a set piece, just like the real world.

In the real world, my idea of a vacation is not to go to some exotic places wandering around and seeing what's out there. But if I'm on a long drive somewhere, I enjoy looking at the scenery, the skyline, the manmade buildings near and far, and natural landmarks, etc., and it just makes the world look amazing and makes me glad to be in it. I feel the same way about FFXIV's zones, especially after flying. I only feel the same way about WoW's zones temporarily until those feelings are sucked out of me by prolonged forced grounding.

And by interesting, I'm not really making a huge demand. It's like dungeons. One reason why I prefer FFXIV's more recent dungeon design over the past is the lack of skippable mobs. Other people might groan about the idea of rounding up mobs and just using aoe, but I prefer that to having just stay in the right lane to bypass them. If they're skippable, then they might as well not be there because they're just annoyances when someone pulls them by mistake.

As it stands, enemies in the open world are mostly skippable, and the worst kind, because they have leashes, which means they're not just skippable, but they're ignorable.