Yoshi-P Statement on Player Feedback

[Ryaz]

"Be nice to the developers," Yoshi-P would say, and give them a whalloping. No matter how many times we scolded him.

Also, this thread seems to have derailed some time ago.

[Rinhi]

Also, this thread seems to have derailed some time ago.

it derailed with the creation because it's about JP players mailing knives and death threats to the devs and not about players criticizing or complaining about class design decisions

[Lauront]

it derailed with the creation because it's about JP players mailing knives and death threats to the devs and not about players criticizing or complaining about class design decisions

Yup, exactly. So people, so don't do that and we're golden.

[Krotoan]

it derailed with the creation because it's about JP players mailing knives and death threats to the devs and not about players criticizing or complaining about class design decisions

Questions:
Do you really think people who would mail knives and give death threats about a video game can be reasoned with?

Is it so farfetched to believe that a statement about verbal abuse and how it's not useful as feedback an can actually be harmful to future creativity is about people verbally abusing developers in general?


I'm aware a lot of people are taking it to extremes (as the forum always does) with "NO CRITICISM!" and "ABUSE CAN BE WARRANTED".. but .. I'd say the founding statement is at least partially asking for people to be less vitriolic in their criticisms or at least not call into question developers creds and dedication.

[Rinhi]

Questions:
Do you really think people who would mail knives and give death threats about a video game can be reasoned with?

no, but one can try to do so, hence the letter being aimed at them

Is it so farfetched to believe that a statement about verbal abuse and how it's not useful as feedback an can actually be harmful to future creativity is about people verbally abusing developers in general?

I'm aware a lot of people are taking it to extremes (as the forum always does) with "NO CRITICISM!" and "ABUSE CAN BE WARRANTED".. but .. I'd say the founding statement is at least partially asking for people to be less vitriolic in their criticisms or at least not call into question developers creds and dedication.

I don't know why you keep implying that I think it's okay for people to spout vitriolic abuse towards the developers when I've said absolutely nowhere that it's okay, quite the opposite, in fact
but both you and I know that some people, whose (valid) complaints haven't been heard, addressed or just outright ignored, all while it's said that 'they read every bit of feedback', might become upset because they felt that they've been getting lied to - for years, in some instances (for example; MCHs ping issues which have been complained about since what, HW? and only during the EW live letter YoshiP seemed to have learned about it)
feeling angry about being lied to about something you care about is a very human thing, and that's the only thing I'm sympathetic about because insulting someone does frick all for your cause and is more likely to put people off your position


seconding the moderation thing from one of your later posts in response to Connor, though from my experience, it's very much hit and miss
most troll threads are allowed to thrive, people get banned for genuinely harmless jokes aimed at nobody or defending themselves, huge chunks of civil discussions getting removed without a word or reason, sometimes even just deleting one side from it (though that could've been the result of an FC mass reporting posts, so who knows)

[Krotoan]

no, but one can try to do so, hence the letter being aimed at them

I really don't think this is a plea for people to stop being crazy. Cause you really cannot stop that and even less so with polite requests. Yoshi P is a reasonably internet savvy guy I'd say and old enough (and experienced enough) to understand what gamers are like. I honestly don't think he's addressing the fringe crazies here.

I don't know why you keep implying that I think it's okay for people to spout vitriolic abuse towards the developers when I've said absolutely nowhere that it's okay, quite the opposite, in fact

I'm not trying to do that, so if you're taking it that way I apologize and will do my best to clarify in the future. I am not accusing you of even tolerating abuse. I am advocating the ask as I see it, that's all.

but both you and I know that some people, whose (valid) complaints haven't been heard, addressed or just outright ignored, all while it's said that 'they read every bit of feedback', might become upset because they felt that they've been getting lied to - for years, in some instances (for example; MCHs ping issues which have been complained about since what, HW? and only during the EW live letter YoshiP seemed to have learned about it)
feeling angry about being lied to about something you care about is a very human thing, and that's the only thing I'm sympathetic about because insulting someone does frick all for your cause and is more likely to put people off your position

People will get angry and I understand that and I understand why. I just like to restate that I don't think that should ever spill over, which is just because I can personally keep it in or weigh it's actual value against being a human being, so as per usual human standard I don't feel it's all that hard NOT to post or respond like a rager. Failing to do so in this case likely being the product of overvaluing a video game or as Yoshi P. himself said "not seeing the human". Not a counter statement or judgement on your personal values, more of a restatement of what I'd like to see and what I do see.

seconding the moderation thing from one of your later posts in response to Connor, though from my experience, it's very much hit and miss
most troll threads are allowed to thrive, people get banned for genuinely harmless jokes aimed at nobody or defending themselves, huge chunks of civil discussions getting removed without a word or reason, sometimes even just deleting one side from it (though that could've been the result of an FC mass reporting posts, so who knows)

It is incredibly frustrating to see the troll threads thrive, but it's also important to learn from them. They VERY CAREFULLY skirt rules and often use them against contributory posters who seek to "put them in their place" or contribute to moderation. The jokes I've seen result in bans or removal almost always break CoC or forum rules, even if it's just the letter... I say people aren't seeing the trolls actual goals and think they're "clapping back" or getting something up on them when in reality a lot of people simply fall for the traps. Our resident returning trolls are incredibly careful and know the moderation teams methods and standards pretty well by now, a lot can be learned by seeing just how far they go and what things they absolutely will not touch.

[IdowhatIwant]

I still think the team has gotten lazy with content. Despite budget increases and staff increases, the game gets less content and worst content.

While they do not listen to everything we say.. and possibly not even MOST things we say, there are too many changes that line up with popular topics here to think there is NO influence from us.

How do you know they aren't making the same complaints in the jp forums

[Snorky]

I still think the team has gotten lazy with content. Despite budget increases and staff increases, the game gets less content and worst content.



How do you know they aren't making the same complaints in the jp forums

Even after you were asked to stop using that term you continue. Now I know you are trolling and will now ignore your posts completely.

[Krotoan]

I still think the team has gotten lazy with content. Despite budget increases and staff increases, the game gets less content and worst content.

While we have gotten less of certain content, we have also gotten DIFFERENT content in exchange. You may not like it, you may not think it's "good", but it's there and evidence that work is still being done. Expressing a preference for certain content doesn't have to deride the content you don't like. I particularly don't enjoy Savage/extreme content. It seems extraneous, frustrating, and superfluous. However, I also don't speak against it since I understand it's not meant to be my thing. All I need to say is: I will likely never do it, so I don't want more of it.

All in all lazy implies they are avoiding doing work or doing less work or possibly less quality work when it's evident the same if not more effort is being put into content, just into different areas.

How do you know they aren't making the same complaints in the jp forums

The most obvious example being the gender-unlocked everything we're getting. This is not a JP ask and never has been. So much so that the developers thought it was a joke when people first asked for the bunny-suit to be male wearable (and maybe it was to begin with).

I also occasionally drop into the JP forums with my meager Japanese reading skills and some DeepL to see what they're talking about.. it's almost never the exact same things.