Yoshi-P Statement on Player Feedback

[Kaurhz]

what is it with people like you saying things like that and then starting to go on a toxic tirade against the people they disagree with, which happens throughout the whole thread? several posts had zero indication that the person criticizing the devs/their job design or whatever used any mean words, yet people like you go on huge rants about how they must've been overtly aggressive and come to other various assumption about the other side of the argument to vilify the other side
follow your own words, for once and be nice



the big majority of people who voice their concerns and issues with the game do so in a completely civil and constructive ways and the same crap happens, and yes, some of the people are or have been game devs and yet, people are still attacking them because to some people SE can do no wrong

and stop with this "you need to be qualified in X to be able to judge Y" fanboy/girl crap, it's never been an actual argument
not for art, not for music, not for game design, not for anything

Because the toxicity is not just limited to this thread, but is evident across several threads. Besides, as per my initial point, it is not what you say but how you say it. Another instance where this seemingly eludes many people.

In case it wasn't abundantly clear I am using irony to make my point. The very fact you construe my words as being rude is just first-hand demonstration of "it is not what you say but how you say it". It's equally as ironic that you would construe my attitude as being rude and mean, yet in the self-same vein to not denounce the players accusing developers of being lazy, incompetent, or throwing around baseless accusations such as them not playing the game. Or equally making the statement they should be fired.

Again, the content of toxicity isn't just exclusive to this very thread, but is rather evident in several threads. Would it make you feel better that I go on a 'tirade' in those threads, denouncing the behaviour as opposed to highlighting a clear issue in this very thread, of which the topic is ill-constructed feedback with arguably malicious intent.

If you are going to make bold statements that the developers don't know what they're doing, or more importantly that they are lazy and incompetent, then you ought to have the words to actually back up this statement and the qualifications to stand by your own very point. It's disingenuous to attack the work ethic and ability or proficiency of people in a field that you know naught about. Just take a look at the myriad of people and threads in the past bashing the servers and those that manage them, whilst trying to make the grandiose statements that their excuses and reasoning is "a load of crap and that they simply don't care and are too lazy to bother upgrading their own server hardware" - and you want to try and convince me that credentials are not a valid argument when trying to make factual statements such as this? Sorry, but no. - It most definitely is a valid argument.

Criticism is one thing when it is directed towards the content itself and whilst it is constructive. Criticism when it is not constructive and used as an opportunity to be rude is entirely different. Besides you having criticisms for the game or anyone for that matter does not mean that other people, or myself for that matter are obligated to roll over for your criticisms. This is just creating a debate. Me disagreeing with a criticism (or anyone for that matter), wherein their only retort is essentially "YOU HURT MY FEELINGS", or "NO IT'S OK".. These statements are not ok. But a disagreement where logical arguments are presented is ok. Once again, you having a criticism of the game does not mean that people are obligated to agree with it.

If developers have not followed your highlighted complaints then it is a matter of their approach and design philosophy quite clearly differing from your own. At which point you argue whether their design philosophy is entirely healthy for the game, including those playing at high-level. Not just calling them lazy. The irony that you should make the statement that people disagreeing with your criticisms constitutes as an attack whilst, (once again) seemingly thinking it's ok to go ahead and make inferences about people being lazy. The reality of the situation is this statement is just vilifying one side of the crowd, whilst exhibiting the self-same behaviour yourself.

It's a desperation move aimed at discrediting someone's criticism. It's a fallacy called "Appeal to accomplishment" and it's a type of logical fallacy, so their argument is immediately considered invalid.

The point I made was largely in reference to the people that are under the belief the hardware they can simply purchase kit on Newegg or just make the seamless migration over to the cloud. Arguably the point is more on the basis of peoples' understanding of the logistics of a certain job/task more than anything else. But whilst we're on the sentimental approach of using murky fallacies - Have one of your own, argumentum ad logicam. The point of the argument being made is that making a conclusion of a person in a field that you yourself have zero understanding with respect to the nuances is a bad faith stance. Which is an entirely correct conclusion.

[Semirhage]

What is it with people struggling to grasp the notion; "It is not what you say but how you say it" - You don't need to outright be offensive or rude. Simply stating, or trying to push the agenda that the developers are lazy, particularly from people who aren't even remotely qualified to do the self-same job, or of equal proportion is almost absurdly laughable. #

I need only practically look at the myriad of threads on this forum to see a clear and noticeable portion of people using it as an opportunity to be either rude and disrespectful towards people that more than likely work harder than the absolute vast majority of people on this forum. Take for example telling a developer or making the statement that they should be fired simply because their design philosophy doesn't align with your own. - What you and many people need to realise is that there is a distinction between criticising the content and the design of aforementioned content, and then criticising the developers themselves as a result. I've seen a fair few cases where people have taken less time criticising the content and how it can be improved, and more time trying to spurt out nonsensical and counterproductive remarks.

You can construe the behaviour as you wish. If someone acting like a fairly decent human being constitutes as fake positivity or passive-aggressive then by all means... Personally I'd rather not have a decrepit moral compass.

Yeah, my post pointed out that the FFXIV community flings themselves exaggeratedly at their fainting couches when someone dares to take any kind of "tone" that isn't perfectly cheery, and I get this rant about "decrepit moral compasses".

I have no idea where I got this idea that the XIV community has a problem with toxic positivity and drama queening.

Yeah, I disagree with the devs' design philosophy on healers. They seem to believe spending 80%+ of an encounter casting one spell over and over and over again is "fun". I think someone would have to either A) not play the role in any real capacity at all, and/or B) not care about the role beyond unlocking it and making sure it's barebones capable of clearing content and nothing more.

I think that position is eminently justifiable, and if it hurts someone's feewings that I think it takes a lack of care or attention to hold that design philosophy, then all I can say is that, respectfully, your bar for hurt feelings is concerningly low.

[Kaurhz]

snip.

You wouldn't get these tones, nor the argument in the first place if the vast majority of people weren't using "toxic positivity", "Passive-aggressive", or "White Knight" so willy-nilly to the point that it actually starting to detract from their original defined meaning, wherein the many cases of their use are just poor attempts at trying to shut down a disagreement with their own argument or points.

See:

Yeah, I disagree with the devs' design philosophy on healers. They seem to believe spending 80%+ of an encounter casting one spell over and over and over again is "fun". I think someone would have to either A) not play the role in any real capacity at all, and/or B) not care about the role beyond unlocking it and making sure it's barebones capable of clearing content and nothing more.

It is entirely a relevant, valid and fairly constructive criticism to make. Healers are largely fairly stale jobs, but then the only concern surrounding this is.. How would you then design the system that allows for the leeway on people making mistakes and then having to interrupt your own rotation and sacrifice your own DPS as a result of other peoples' mistakes? The way I view this conundrum is that once you've learned the encounter, you're presented with oversimplification (which yes they are notorious for doing - Especially taking the opposite end of the spectrum for crafting), and then when you're learning or when groups are vastly less talented and prone to making mistakes, then, well that's where I personally would see issues coming into play. I think the only thing that would really need to be taken into consideration here is those designing the jobs are not necessarily the same people testing, and the very people testing the jobs arguably might not have the same proficiency as you do, or many of the people playing at a semi-competent level. Or arguably their design and testing methodology and philosophy might not take these things into account, where as per your second point inferring, may only be testing for barebone functionality and usability. <- Also a constructive argument to be made about their design philosophy.

Which the above paragraph and your own both deviates both from "Lul devs lazeee", and "Lul just get over it"

You're right that position is eminently justifiable and a sound argument. What is not a sound argument is this whole shtick that many people have with the 2 above mentioned points of going for the developers as opposed to their design, or their philosophy of the job, or the communication with their community, such as forum panels for each role wherein people can ask questions and answers, probing the developers precisely for their philosophy. Again, I don't denounce criticisms such as this. I denounce criticisms wherein the only concern is a derogatory slugfest, or mountains of counterproductive remarks.

Respectfully, not everyone is as inclined as you to present their criticism without throwing a fit. That is the point.

[Snorky]

Seems to me a lot of people in this thread are trying to change the narrative of the thread to deflect from their own inadequate abilities to phase a statement without resorting to insulting. Look I don't care if you are upset about (insert whatever class) ability is not to your liking. But it's your right to criticize the way it works, it's not anyone's right to insult anyone or call names. It's not tolerated in game, it's not tolerated on the forums. It's very simple you can disagree and call some THING bad but not some ONE. If being civil takes practice then maybe you should seek the advice of a professional who delves into why your social skills set to see where you can improve. I would like to take a moment and thank my mother and father for instilling good manners in me when I was a kid. We didn't smart mouth people or older adults because if we did we got the belt later. We learned manners such as not calling people ugly names or insulting them when we were mad or having a tantrum in public because we didn't get what we wanted. Which seems many have melt downs when they are not immediately agreed with. What ever criticism you have for various aspects of this game is fine just say them without insulting anyone players and devs. It's really simple.

[Baxcel]

snip

See the things your also missing about some of this.. after reading the entire thing.. is that the people saying the devs don't play the game are not completely wrong..

We've had interviews and videos from the devs and NONE of them play anything but DPS classes.

Some of them might be jumping the gun with what they're saying but over all they're not wrong about them not playing the game.

From what I remember from this Media Tour interview, the "we had no clue about it" part was concerning Blood Weapon and not LD. At this point I'm pretty sure they are fine with LD situation as a design choice and won't ever change it..

Yep that was suppose to be a separate topic, why I spaced it apart, sorry that it wasn't as clear as it should be. I was quickly typing at work lol

[Onshinn]

Do game developers expect 'sympathy' from a review? Would that mean I shouldn't give them an honest constructive criticism? Or is it about the language and eloquence of how players 'worded' their comments. If developers expect a 'sympathise' review of their game, wouldn't that be insulting to their 'portfolio'. It would meant that I'll be holding back what's real for the good of the game industry, no?.

[Snorky]

See the things your also missing about some of this.. after reading the entire thing.. is that the people saying the devs don't play the game are not completely wrong..

We've had interviews and videos from the devs and NONE of them play anything but DPS classes.

Some of them might be jumping the gun with what they're saying but over all they're not wrong about them not playing the game.




Yep that was suppose to be a separate topic, why I spaced it apart, sorry that it wasn't as clear as it should be. I was quickly typing at work lol

I didn't miss anything I clearly stated (I didn't care about what your individual gripes are with this game) If you feel they need to play the game as certain classes okay. What I was pointing out is you do not need to be insulting about it. I think people need to step back and look at this threads topic at hand. If you have a gripe about the devs not playing certain classes you are free to make another thread. I won't get into a discussion about certain classes because I don't care. I am happy playing the classes I do play. I don't play healers or tanks I never have in the 30 years I have been playing these games so don't have an opinion on it. You can express an opinion without insulting people. It can be done.

[HappyHubris]

Criticism is part of creation. Especially when your creation is only partly working for weeks upon weeks.

I don't like several choices in Endwalker. I will discuss that criticism. I won't be hyperbolic, but I also won't shy away from being genuine. Some of that criticism is directly related to choices the dev team make that negatively impact my sort of player to boost another sort of player (especially for healers...).

Of course, I'm an English player, so the chance of any developer reading my words is 0%. But I did give polite feedback in the form of canceling my sub, which I guess is bilingual.

[IdowhatIwant]

When the we are told that error 2002 is a problem with client side internet both in ARR and EW, only for people to use a free packet sniffing program to prove that the issue is server side. Then miraculously they find some jank that existed since 1.0. Common sense would tell you with the number of people having the issue it is highly unlikely that all these various ISP and users are having internet issues at same time. This is something Blizzard has similarly done in the past is blame ISPs for server side problems. That really shows a lack of effort, care and intergrity at investigating a solution to an issue that thousands of people were experiencing.

The design philosophy that is told to us vs the design philosophy that exists with in the game. For example we have been told that content should be clearable with healers only healing. Savage mode has never functioned with that design philosophy as the DPS output of the DPS and tanks combined is not enough to meet the requirement with out being over geared for the content. We have also been told that all classes should be viable for all content. This has never been true on release of an expansion and in many cases the release of a savage mode. EW first savage tier is a pretty clear example of this, as dancers are not as viable in the later savage fights due to DPS requirements to clear the fight with in the time frame. It almost feels as if we are a patch behind with class updates as the previous patch did not address many problems classes are facing which is either due to a lack of testing or the devs may even be behind due to other problems such as the server issue. Players are able to run simulators create excel sheets ect, to figure out what sort of rotation gives the highest dps and what dps requirements are needed to clear a fight. The dev team should easily be able to do similar work with less effort than players put into this but it is apparent this is not done which has historically shown a lack of care and effort meeting ones own design philosophy and class balance when paired with the content that is produced.

When we are told that the dev team actively plays the game and "clears savage content" they should be able to clearly see the design philosophy and goals they have set to achieve have not been met. If they truely did what they are claiming they would not rely so heavily on player feed back to achieve these goals. That the devs saying they play the game also does not mean that every class is played by the devs so there can be over sights in this. Devs typically are mistreated for the effort they make to achieve goals how ever, there are reasons for that. If goals are not met in software it can cause actual harm to people which is why typically software should have a 95% success rate. This is a video game though not software for an xray machine or anything that can harm some one but the point still stands that there is a clear lack of testing.

Throwing this out there but anyone stating unless you work as a game developer you can never understand what they go through. I would like to point out unless you are part of the dev team itself you can never understand what they go through. They may have all the freedom of design and what ever budget they need and lack of time constraints. We actually do not know so using assumptions based on this to defend the developers or go against the developers is quiet pointless. No job is the same, no company is the same.

In short, the things I have listed above are reasons why I will state that in my opinion I feel that the devs and the content feels lazy. The game has not achieved the goals devs have told us were set, the design philosophy we have been told has not been met, and finger pointing issues on the users that clearly were not on the users end. These all show a lack of effort, care, and activity which is essentially the definition of lazy.

[ApolloGenX]

I have called out what I believe to be material deficiencies in the storytelling in this expansion.

I have played since 1.0 and I have loved and not loved certain expansions.

I have been vocal about how much I love some characters like Emet... how well written and wonderful some expansions are ... HW and ShB... and I have no problem pointing out what I consider to be significant issues with this expansion.