Final Fantasy 14 Players trying WOW?

[linayar]

I would agree, though I do think it devalues topography and mob diversity, both of which are important to me until I outgear the latter into irrelevance and have gone up the same hill one too many time (YMMV).

I mentioned that position because it's one a not insignificant portion of WoW players hold and around which the devs must navigate. The devs don't care about increasing player hours played if it'd cost them subs, and the flight requirements for the new Shadowlands zones certainly already push into that territory; there would have to be, then, some other reason slightly tipping the balance, preferably beyond the persistent fallback explanation of "developers' heads stuck in their butts", especially when we see similarly pushed scales in content releases that don't typically share as many oversights or miscalculations of player wants.

Oh, I agree that there are players who like the current system. There are even players who don't want flight at all. That's why I'm not mad at the developers as they clearly have their audience. I just choose not to partake in it (or at least, partake in it in a way that would be more tolerable for me). It's also why I choose to be more conservative with regard to certain proposed changes to FFXIV because I honestly enjoy a lot of how FFXIV works compared to other MMOs I've played.

You could flight (later) in WoD. The person who gave you this information likely simply quit WoD before it was introduced, e.g., in its initial post-release drought.

I am aware of Pathfinder in WoD as I've completed it. I mean that I heard they weren't going to have flying at all originally before they changed their mind and came up with pathfinder.

I feel like that's, again, the core difference. In XIV, a zone is basically "done" when its MSQ is done. In WoW, relatively few of the hours you spend in a zone, unless you jump straight into higher-difficulty means of gear acquisition (forgoing all catch-up mechanics or the like), will equally or more come after having finished your leveling there.

And that, of course, accounts for only the leveling zones. Many zones in WoW are available only after level cap in their given expansion. (3 out of 8 zones in Legion, 2 of 8 in BfA, 2 of 7 in Shadowlands, etc.) Even if we replace "leveling" with the shorter "main story", those zones' intent still also include far more varied forms of interaction/content (to use equivalent terms -- Hunts, doing FATEs, treasure-finding, leveling zone-specific Trusts from local allies, farming glamours, becoming more powerful via zone-specific powers, building up your base, etc.).

That just makes it worse to me. You have all those reasons to be in the zone post leveling that flying would be a benefit for doing them. Instead, you're forced to be grounded while you do those contents.

Again, though, many zones have literally no attached leveling, being available only after cap, and the questline themselves are just scant introduction to the areas, not the main point of their having been developed.

There is the option to have flight per zone rather than having it be all or nothing. Even now, in Shadowlands, I believe they're doing that with Zereth Mortis. So new zones mid expansion or after level cap would not be a reason to timegate flight.

I'd agree it's acceptable; I just found it odd to put world PvP as something that'd benefit from flight (perhaps I misread your implication) when the consensus has pretty consistently tended towards the opposite -- that flight replaces World PvP with (an unnacceptably large portion of, or solely, depending on whom you ask) stalemates and griefing exchanges.

No, I'm not saying it benefits from flight, but that flight should be an acceptable risk. Just because you want to fight someone doesn't mean that they want to fight you, and flight is one way to flee or to avoid pvp. I know some people don't want flight due to pvp and that reason is what I was responding to.

Oh, I'm aware. Again, it was merely a "naive pipedream" that I gave by way of example. And I fully understand why Azys Lla's unlocks were simpler than what we elsewhere. I mean, we just got a dragon mount after a decently cool cutscene. No one is going to want to then backtrack to a little gassy, green ball and palm-check it with a very concerned face for a few seconds so they can learn how to ride said dragon.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that mount...

[Shurrikhan]

There is the option to have flight per zone rather than having it be all or nothing.

Until Mechagon, in BfA, WoW flight had already been basically per-zone, though zones in WoW do work differently from here as entire continents fall into a single instance, rather than each having loading screens between.

(This gives only the exception of Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms, which require a loading screen to move between, being considered a single zone in terms of flight unlocks, as they both follow the same level span, and, later, flight becoming standardized in all expansions beyond the penultimate, such that Outland, Northrend, Cataclysm, Pandaria, Draenor, or the Broken Isles once they were likewise put into the same level span by way of the "Choose your expansion(s) to level via" feature.)

This still mostly applies to anything since, as well. The Maw is a separate zone from the rest of the Shadowlands*, as is Zereth Mortis. Korthia is the only other odd exception, as it was part of the Maw's larger instance. (*Players managed to use a bugged World Quest/FATE to fly the gap between Shadowlands areas directly even before flight--i.e., without using Flight Paths and its possibly disguised loading screen in going into and from Oribos. Though hugely spit apart, they are all part of the same larger instance map.)

That just makes it worse to me. You have all those reasons to be in the zone post leveling that flying would be a benefit for doing them. Instead, you're forced to be grounded while you do those contents.

And getting better (i.e., above the latest crafted tier) gear earlier would be a benefit in current raids, which would at the time have all the reason to do; instead, we're held back by weekly caps while we do that content.

I don't say that to wave a red herring; I don't think it is one. Rather, your argument could make the case for further gradations in flight capacity beyond being unlocked merely per-zone, but it only it makes clearer why, while that content is still relevant, not every means of accelerating it isn't yet given.

No, I'm not saying it benefits from flight, but that flight should be an acceptable risk. Just because you want to fight someone doesn't mean that they want to fight you, and flight is one way to flee or to avoid pvp. I know some people don't want flight due to pvp and that reason is what I was responding to.

Right, but again --and this is due more to mount speed than whether it can fly (though a flying mount moving only at ground mount speed would rapidly piss of players, so the two matters do quickly becomes intwined)-- because the mount speed is so high, it tends to increase the relative penalty of reaction times and nullify the space made by active evasive movement (teleporting away, etc., since, at some 4x movement speed, they only need to move for a further second to again reach you anyways). Evasion becomes harder, not easier, by way of flying mounts, so long as you have prior need to dismount (i.e., to actually do something other than ganking players).

I am aware of Pathfinder in WoD as I've completed it. I mean that I heard they weren't going to have flying at all originally before they changed their mind and came up with pathfinder.

Ahh, gotcha.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that mount...

And I've not used it since, but I do remember getting it being cool at the time?

[linayar]

Until Mechagon, in BfA, WoW flight had already been basically per-zone, though zones in WoW do work differently from here as entire continents fall into a single instance, rather than each having loading screens between.

(This gives only the exception of Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms, which require a loading screen to move between, being considered a single zone in terms of flight unlocks, as they both follow the same level span, and, later, flight becoming standardized in all expansions beyond the penultimate, such that Outland, Northrend, Cataclysm, Pandaria, Draenor, or the Broken Isles once they were likewise put into the same level span by way of the "Choose your expansion(s) to level via" feature.)

This still mostly applies to anything since, as well. The Maw is a separate zone from the rest of the Shadowlands*, as is Zereth Mortis. Korthia is the only other odd exception, as it was part of the Maw's larger instance. (*Players managed to use a bugged World Quest/FATE to fly the gap between Shadowlands areas directly even before flight--i.e., without using Flight Paths and its possibly disguised loading screen in going into and from Oribos. Though hugely spit apart, they are all part of the same larger instance map.)

By zone, I mean the default area covered by your map (without zooming out). I don't know what it's like pre-pathfinder, but pathfinder definitely does not unlock flight "per zone" by how I defined a zone to be until Zereth Mortis in Shadowlands. (And I'm not counting zones like the Maw or Argus in Legion where you can't unlock flight anyway.)

And getting better (i.e., above the latest crafted tier) gear earlier would be a benefit in current raids, which would at the time have all the reason to do; instead, we're held back by weekly caps while we do that content.

I don't say that to wave a red herring; I don't think it is one. Rather, your argument could make the case for further gradations in flight capacity beyond being unlocked merely per-zone, but it only it makes clearer why, while that content is still relevant, not every means of accelerating it isn't yet given.

Gearing is time gated because gearing (or power progression in general) is the main mechanism of combat. It is how you control the difficulty of content, whether you can clear a content and how easily.

Flight does not do so for most of the content that you do in the open world (at least, from what I've experienced from WoD through BfA zone). It is a transportation mechanism to get you to the content that you do.

The equivalent of withholding flight is not time gating gearing, but time gating access to cross server raid or access to some kind of dungeon finder or pre-made group finder. They don't affect the difficulty of content, just accessibility in getting to the content.

Right, but again --and this is due more to mount speed than whether it can fly (though a flying mount moving only at ground mount speed would rapidly piss of players, so the two matters do quickly becomes intwined)-- because the mount speed is so high, it tends to increase the relative penalty of reaction times and nullify the space made by active evasive movement (teleporting away, etc., since, at some 4x movement speed, they only need to move for a further second to again reach you anyways). Evasion becomes harder, not easier, by way of flying mounts, so long as you have prior need to dismount (i.e., to actually do something other than ganking players).

I'll take your word it, but I think you get my point.

[Shurrikhan]

By zone, I mean the default area covered by your map (without zooming out).

Again, that's now how WoW works, though, especially in a post-level-scaling environment. Every "zone" in XIV sense can be moved between every which way, without loading screens; the instances are content-sized. It'd make little sense to be able to fly in one zone, cross one inch too far along an invisible, seamless border, and instantly drop to one's death. Even if there were a safety period and the like, why would flying in the cold, gusty skies of one zone be different from the cold, gusty skies of its neighbor, etc.? If you unlocked flight in the Broken Isles, it applied to all the broken isles. If you unlocked flight in Outland or Draenor or Northrend, that capacity wouldn't be split by sub-zone, because neither are those instances (any more than flying over a small hub suddenly changes you to a new "zone" just because it's a named space).

Flight does not do so for most of the content that you do in the open world (at least, from what I've experienced from WoD through BfA zone).

When you can do said content even at minimum ilvl, gear beyond that point, just like speed and the ability to avoid dangers beyond what is necessary to reach all necessary parts of a map, is mere facilitator/accelerator. Does the ability to nullify dangers, including barely-avoidable rares and the like who could one-shot you vs. being one-shot by avoidable raid mechanics, matter for one but not the other? That seems inconsistent.

The equivalent of withholding flight is not time gating gearing, but time gating access to cross server raid or access to some kind of dungeon finder or pre-made group finder.

I have to disagree; the closest parallel clearly seems to be overgearing / gearing beyond what is absolutely necessary, as would nullify certain dangers and make the process on the whole quicker.

I'll take your word it, but I think you get my point.

Depends. Is your point that "the world PvP environment caused my mounts, typically considered worse for world PvP's enjoyability, is an added risk that WoW players chose when playing on a PvP server (formerly) or on Warmode (now), knowing that flight would eventually be unlocked anyways"?

[linayar]

Again, that's now how WoW works, though, especially in a post-level-scaling environment. Every "zone" in XIV sense can be moved between every which way, without loading screens; the instances are content-sized. It'd make little sense to be able to fly in one zone, cross one inch too far along an invisible, seamless border, and instantly drop to one's death. Even if there were a safety period and the like, why would flying in the cold, gusty skies of one zone be different from the cold, gusty skies of its neighbor, etc.? If you unlocked flight in the Broken Isles, it applied to all the broken isles. If you unlocked flight in Outland or Draenor or Northrend, that capacity wouldn't be split by sub-zone, because neither are those instances (any more than flying over a small hub suddenly changes you to a new "zone" just because it's a named space).

The answer to your question is that it is a game system. There is no reason for flight to be locked in the first place. You have flying mounts and they should not forget how to fly until some arbitrary requirements are met. But if we're going to have those requirements, they don't need to be stretched long enough for all zones to be available in an expansion. Pathfinder part 1 could unlock flying for the starting zones, then add forced safe landing as you approach a new zone until you unlock flying there via pathfinder part 2. (That's just an example using pathfinder like in Legion and BfA with the two-part system, though I think the system should still be changed.)

When you can do said content even at minimum ilvl, gear beyond that point, just like speed and the ability to avoid dangers beyond what is necessary to reach all necessary parts of a map, is mere facilitator/accelerator. Does the ability to nullify dangers, including barely-avoidable rares and the like who could one-shot you vs. being one-shot by avoidable raid mechanics, matter for one but not the other? That seems inconsistent.

I have to disagree; the closest parallel clearly seems to be overgearing / gearing beyond what is absolutely necessary, as would nullify certain dangers and make the process on the whole quicker.

If flying in open world content is like gearing in raids, does that mean that gears don't matter in open world content? I don't think that's the case. The thing that you say gearing does to raids is the same thing that it does in open world content.

So flying does not replace gears. Again, flying is transportation. It is the difference between someone being summoned/teleported to a raid or going there manually. That is the closest parallel.

The content that you do in the open world still requires you to be grounded. That's where your gears will help you, not flying.

Depends. Is your point that "the world PvP environment caused my mounts, typically considered worse for world PvP's enjoyability, is an added risk that WoW players chose when playing on a PvP server (formerly) or on Warmode (now), knowing that flight would eventually be unlocked anyways"?

I'm not sure what you even mean with the parts in bold, haha.

Anyways, flying/mounting itself is not so much a risk, but a feature of the open world setting. If people want a more controlled environment, that's what instanced pvp is for, and that's also where you get two willing parties ready to fight each other.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm not sure what you even mean with the parts in bold, haha.

Sorry, been sick, so my proofreading isn't super lucid.

"World PvP environment caused by [flying] mounts" (not sure I left out the most important part) is referring just to how world PvP ends up greatly changed in feel and flow because of the ability to engage far more quickly--and, if one kills successfully, disengage with far less recourse. The same stuff I talked about earlier.

Anyways, flying/mounting itself is not so much a risk, but a feature of the open world setting. If people want a more controlled environment, that's what instanced pvp is for, and that's also where you get two willing parties ready to fight each other.

I do think it's still a "risk" in that if invested in one skill set, e.g., something that plays like an Objective Team Shooter, only to have it later pushed towards something radically different, e.g., something that plays like a 3rd-Party-Favored Battle Royale, you've gotten to know something that then has very little use after that shift. Of course, we could say the same for radical balancing patches in PvE in games with actual customization (multiple, very distinct builds available to a given class), so... /shrug.

But yeah, BGs and arenas are right there and World PvP has never been a gameplay type/mode that the developers would sacrifice anything else for (a bit of a shame, imo, because I think it can be incredibly fun if not left quite so barebone), so it's ultimately fine.

The answer to your question is that it is a game system. There is no reason for flight to be locked in the first place. You have flying mounts and they should not forget how to fly until some arbitrary requirements are met. But if we're going to have those requirements, they don't need to be stretched long enough for all zones to be available in an expansion. Pathfinder part 1 could unlock flying for the starting zones, then add forced safe landing as you approach a new zone until you unlock flying there via pathfinder part 2. (That's just an example using pathfinder like in Legion and BfA with the two-part system, though I think the system should still be changed.)

There are reasons to lock flight, though, unless one can do with flight everything that can be done without it. That includes things like set pieces (imagine some of the killer views moving between plates your first time on the moon in Endwalker); enjoyable auxiliary movement systems like grappling hooks and gliders or, hell, catching a ride on giant flying monster; the dangers that world presents (absent in XIV, so I realize we have no such examples here) and diversity of those dangers' forms; etc. Immediately flight greatly reduces the depth available to zone design unless many careful considerations are taken into account.

Again, for my part, I hate the idea of unlearning flight. My absolute preference has always been the likes of GW2, with distinct mounts, but also to have them persist as combat companions. In such a design, one can curtail the negative effects on zone depth of the unlimited and basically physics-less flight we see in XIV and WoW -- since those mounts do not have unlimited or basically physics-less movement. If your companion-mount consumes considerably more stamina when it has to get you up somewhere, too, then fun little auxiliary movement systems don't lose relevance, even if you may replace, say, gliders with just... your ever-available mount. It'd also adds a further risk element to combat, a potential emotional fixture, etc., etc. The only downside is that it constrains available mounts, since they ought to be unique to each other and must have their commensurate costs for power. Which is why you'd never see it in a game like XIV, where we have flying behemoths who move identically to chocobos.

If flying in open world content is like gearing in raids, does that mean that gears don't matter in open world content?

So flying does not replace gears. Again, flying is transportation. It is the difference between someone being summoned/teleported to a raid or going there manually. That is the closest parallel.

You cannot even use a mount in most raids. You spend almost half your time in daily open world loops, for better or worse, mounted. You are looking at mounts as worth the same amount despite wildly different contexts. There's merely pre-content (and you can teleport to where you begin your daily grind loop just as you can teleport / be summoned to a WoW raid instance), and in-content -- or, what merely gets you to that gameplay and what is part of that gameplay. One's mount is an in-content factor (part of the actual gameplay) in the open world.

Improved mount speed accelerates a good half of all you do in the open world. Improved gear accelerates most of the other half, the time spent fighting rather than mounted (though, ofc, gathering and item-interactions are also a thing off mounts and are not affected by gear).

The content that you do in the open world still requires you to be grounded. That's where your gears will help you, not flying.

You get to said zone. You have 4 objectives. They will take you about 11 minutes of combat and 8 minutes of travel, total. That gear helps the 11 minutes does not cause literally more than doubling your speed (200% to 410% + avoiding dangers and ignoring topography) for the 8 minutes to be a non-factor. They both accelerate those processes.

[linayar]

Sorry, been sick, so my proofreading isn't super lucid.

"World PvP environment caused by [flying] mounts" (not sure I left out the most important part) is referring just to how world PvP ends up greatly changed in feel and flow because of the ability to engage far more quickly--and, if one kills successfully, disengage with far less recourse. The same stuff I talked about earlier.


I do think it's still a "risk" in that if invested in one skill set, e.g., something that plays like an Objective Team Shooter, only to have it later pushed towards something radically different, e.g., something that plays like a 3rd-Party-Favored Battle Royale, you've gotten to know something that then has very little use after that shift. Of course, we could say the same for radical balancing patches in PvE in games with actual customization (multiple, very distinct builds available to a given class), so... /shrug.

But yeah, BGs and arenas are right there and World PvP has never been a gameplay type/mode that the developers would sacrifice anything else for (a bit of a shame, imo, because I think it can be incredibly fun if not left quite so barebone), so it's ultimately fine.

I think the way to not have that type of "risk" is either to not lock flying in the first place or only lock it for the leveling process. That way, people are more used to open world pvp with flying. Making people get used to pvp with no flying and then adding flying a year into every expansion would make that change have a bigger effect.

Or, as we've said earlier, just have no flying in warmode.

There are reasons to lock flight, though, unless one can do with flight everything that can be done without it. That includes things like set pieces (imagine some of the killer views moving between plates your first time on the moon in Endwalker); enjoyable auxiliary movement systems like grappling hooks and gliders or, hell, catching a ride on giant flying monster; the dangers that world presents (absent in XIV, so I realize we have no such examples here) and diversity of those dangers' forms; etc. Immediately flight greatly reduces the depth available to zone design unless many careful considerations are taken into account.

Again, for my part, I hate the idea of unlearning flight. My absolute preference has always been the likes of GW2, with distinct mounts, but also to have them persist as combat companions. In such a design, one can curtail the negative effects on zone depth of the unlimited and basically physics-less flight we see in XIV and WoW -- since those mounts do not have unlimited or basically physics-less movement. If your companion-mount consumes considerably more stamina when it has to get you up somewhere, too, then fun little auxiliary movement systems don't lose relevance, even if you may replace, say, gliders with just... your ever-available mount. It'd also adds a further risk element to combat, a potential emotional fixture, etc., etc. The only downside is that it constrains available mounts, since they ought to be unique to each other and must have their commensurate costs for power. Which is why you'd never see it in a game like XIV, where we have flying behemoths who move identically to chocobos.

I think that's just a matter of questing design. If you make quests that you can't "cheese" with flight and/or make quests that make use of flight, then flying wouldn't be an issue.

You cannot even use a mount in most raids. You spend almost half your time in daily open world loops, for better or worse, mounted. You are looking at mounts as worth the same amount despite wildly different contexts. There's merely pre-content (and you can teleport to where you begin your daily grind loop just as you can teleport / be summoned to a WoW raid instance), and in-content -- or, what merely gets you to that gameplay and what is part of that gameplay. One's mount is an in-content factor (part of the actual gameplay) in the open world.

Improved mount speed accelerates a good half of all you do in the open world. Improved gear accelerates most of the other half, the time spent fighting rather than mounted (though, ofc, gathering and item-interactions are also a thing off mounts and are not affected by gear).


You get to said zone. You have 4 objectives. They will take you about 11 minutes of combat and 8 minutes of travel, total. That gear helps the 11 minutes does not cause literally more than doubling your speed (200% to 410% + avoiding dangers and ignoring topography) for the 8 minutes to be a non-factor. They both accelerate those processes.

Ok, so you're fixating on the time save effect of flying, but that only highlights the difference between open world and raid for me.

The way that WoW has been designed, not mounting in raid does not matter to me because I'm likely to be fighting something, whether the boss or the enemies in between, and (at least in BfA raids) there are a lot of those non-boss enemies compared to FFXIV (even Coil). With the open world, the enemies in my experience do not feel like they are part of the content unless they are near quest objectives. Otherwise, they are just something for me to pass through.

So, yes, flying does save time, but that's a good thing, because it's saving time from the part that is not related to the content that you are trying to do.

And at the end of the day, WoW still has non-flying mounts, which means people who want to experience everything on the ground can still do so.

On a side note, since you mentioned GW2, I think not having flight at all would actually be preferable for me rather than the current system of flight unlock. I think if you don't want people to fly, then just stick with it and design a flightless world. But if you want people to fly, then design a world that you won't feel "underappreciated" with flight. (And I disagree with that, by the way, as I appreciated the world of WoW with flight, even if it may not be the in the same way that others want me to appreciate it.)