Final Fantasy 14 Players trying WOW?

[Driavna]

GW2 did exactly that, at first, and only moved away from that in the new expansion's zones and only with the conviction to do mounts, as a concept, better than any other MMO.

IMO they did, since mounts just increase our mobility options and ArenaNet can always add new ones with different skills that give access to locked areas in future expansions without removing our ability to use what we already have.

However, I also think that proper flying is too much of a convenience and prefer what BD has done with their T10 Pegasus (I think one of GW2 mounts works the same).

[ApolloGenX]

I think I read Microsoft is buying Activision/Blizzard.... so that is interesting.

[KitKatnip]

I think I read Microsoft is buying Activision/Blizzard.... so that is interesting.

Yeah it is all over the internet. Hopefully this will be a good thing for WoW - as in MS takes out the trash and hires competent developers that play their game.

[linayar]

I think I've missed the clue somewhere here. Which part are you disagreeing with?

GW2 did exactly that, at first, and only moved away from that in the new expansion's zones and only with the conviction to do mounts, as a concept, better than any other MMO.

What is not clear? You mentioned GW2 and I believe GW2 doesn't have actual flying (maybe gliding? I started playing GW2 last year during the wait for Endwalker, but haven't gotten far enough to get any mount), so I'm saying a no-flying situation for WoW would be preferable rather than a year of time gating with all those activities needed to unlock flight.

That's... so much easier said than done. You'd need mobs to suddenly have hugely increased threat acquisition areas, to be able to see through objects, being able to move at target mount speed (instead of just at normal sprint speed), etc., as to avoid their being bypassed by flight -- and those lasting dangers, then, aren't going to be worth the sudden gimmickiness of making those dangers last despite flight.

To pull off something like that, it needs to be a deliberate and thematic world design, like having separate and much more dangerous creatures already make use of the various air/aether currents such that trying to slip in among them by using those same means of transport risks getting their attention, much like risking the attention of giant crocodiles or the like when taking a canoe down a speeding river to get back to a quest hub more quickly. It then becomes a matter of comparative risk and reward, where sometimes you crank that risk up to basically ground players across set pieces or key areas and at other times you greatly loosen it in order to let player better milk (their knowledge regarding) those means of quick travel.

I think that's too ambitious.

I'm thinking something smaller scaled like designing objectives that require you to do so on the ground, like for example that quest during Legion where you go up a mountain using grappling hook. Just make it so you can't complete the objective if you simply fly up the mountain.

Or if you want to have a quest where you ride a specific quest mount that travels in a controlled way, you can still do that without allowing the player to just use their flying mount.

It's not a matter fixating on this or that. Unless you want to say that exploration and travel are not and cannot be an intended element beyond purposely wasting player time, then they will be part of the open world content. As a part of said content that changes the way you said content, both ground mounts and later flying mounts reshape that experience.

Like I said, you can have no flight during the leveling process so you can control that exploration experience as you're leveling. Once you're at max level and have completed the leveling story, you should already have gotten a chance to explore the zones on the ground.

If I don't want to kill the boss, but merely want the loot, is overgearing content to the point that it poses no challenge a good thing? It isn't -- loot aside -- content that I am trying to do, after all, so surely it must be, no?

Whether or not it's a good thing, that's what happens in both FFXIV and WoW. Can't kill a boss to get loot? Just overgear/overlevel it (or get help and get good, I suppose).

There's always going to be some split between design intent and the far narrower matter of what a specific player wants from that content. To say, though, that exploration can only be a time-waste, so long as it increases the time until rewards received, but the same cannot be true for combat alone... is disingenuous.

Exploration does not have to be a waste of time, but exploration only happens once. The part of unlocking flight in WoD, Legion, and BfA that I have problem with is not the exploration requirement, but the timegating and reputation and grind requirements. If you were to make the requirements simply be quest completion, exploration completion, find treasure chests, and maybe doing each world quest on the map once (or the major daily quest for WoD), that would allow you to have seen the zones and "completed" all the contents in the zone without flight and potentially made you see the entire zone on the ground.

You and I both know this has no bearing.

For one, you switch flight to not automatically trigger even on flying mounts, and that ground mounts aren't outright removed from your mounts collection upon acquiring flight does not mean that they are intended to be of use thereafter in zones in which you've unlocked flight. It's just not a world that suddenly allows every non-winged creature to float through the air or propel itself along on flatulence.

I'm not sure what the problem is then. Just because you unlock flight doesn't mean the zones have changed. If you can be grounded before flight unlock, you can be grounded afterward. I've done it in BfA because I unlocked flight late, so I still had to be on the ground for a while when doing world quests and other objectives.

Consider also, say, what portion of Party Finder groups will accept minimum ilvl fresh runs in week 7+ after a tier's release. It matters little to most players that it was doable at release at min ilvl and with a blind party because there is comparative loss for doing so at that point. That a player enjoys the open world doesn't mean they won't feel obliged to simply directly teleport to the dungeon's stone to more quickly summon their friends, etc., because it's still, in the end, a multiplayer, treadmill-centric game. We do feel obliged to play not only around our own preferences but also around those we play with and even to occasionally sacrifice our preferences outside of group contexts alone so that we can increase the range of content and players we can engage with.

That's the problem I mentioned earlier. That WoW is designed so that people don't feel like they can choose whether to enjoy being on the ground or flying and have to want everyone else having the same restrictions.

That said, in truth, the open world is still the part of the game that is most solo friendly in terms of current content, in my opinion, and you can still do a lot even if you enjoy being on the ground even when everyone else can fly.

[Shurrikhan]

I believe GW2 doesn't have actual flying

The quote was refering to mounts in general, but here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9CnSQYgv64

I'm thinking something smaller scaled like designing objectives that require you to do so on the ground, like for example that quest during Legion where you go up a mountain using grappling hook. Just make it so you can't complete the objective if you simply fly up the mountain.

If this is for a context in which you could have just flown to the top of the mountain anyways, then I would want nothing to do with this. There's no reason for that (World) quest to then exist. I'd rather it just be removed at that point.

(The original main scenario quest didn't actually even require grappling at each point. It'd direct you to do that, but if you got to the next checkpoint without it, it'd just let you go anyways. It existed just to get you to the top to rescue and talk to the dragons.)

Moreover, none of that notes the actual core change, the fact that you can avoid all prior threats in the zone to reach the start of the given quests. It'd be like going for your daily treasure chest by, instead of pushing through a beastman stronghold complete with alarm systems, simply flying over to just above the chest, dropping in, looting, and leaving.

If you can be grounded before flight unlock, you can be grounded afterward.

That reads equally to "if you can be minimally geared before the average player has 20% more item level, you can be minimally geared thereafter" or "if you could join a FATE party without having unlocked flight in Hour 1 of an expansion, you can join a FATE party without flight thereafter." That's not how multiplayer games work.

That something is technically possible does not make it a legit, let alone unpunished, choice.

Whether or not it's a good thing, that's what happens in both FFXIV and WoW. Can't kill a boss to get loot? Just overgear/overlevel it.

That's not my point. To apply your definition of content as it regarded travel, if I did not care about actually killing the boss, only looting it, then killing could not be content -- only looting it would be.

Exploration does not have to be a waste of time, but exploration only happens once. The part of unlocking flight in WoD, Legion, and BfA that I have problem with is not the exploration requirement, but the timegating and reputation and grind requirements. If you were to make the requirements simply be quest completion, exploration completion, find treasure chests, and maybe doing each world quest on the map once (or the major daily quest for WoD), that would allow you to have seen the zones and "completed" all the contents in the zone without flight and potentially made you see the entire zone on the ground.

And I would be fine with that. But it's merely a question of degree, of when one has "completed" the zone. You say all MSQ + one of each FATE (World Quest) = complete. The current model is MSQ plus about a dozen Emissary quests and some relevant post-cap questlines = complete. (Rep bonus rates, though I don't know why anyone would 'grind' this outside of rep bonus weeks.)

[linayar]

The quote was refering to mounts in general, but here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9CnSQYgv64

Yeah, gliding and fall physics, cool stuff, actually.

If this is for a context in which you could have just flown to the top of the mountain anyways, then I would want nothing to do with this. There's no reason for that (World) quest to then exist. I'd rather it just be removed at that point.

(The original main scenario quest didn't actually even require grappling at each point. It'd direct you to do that, but if you got to the next checkpoint without it, it'd just let you go anyways. It existed just to get you to the top to rescue and talk to the dragons.)

Moreover, none of that notes the actual core change, the fact that you can avoid all prior threats in the zone to reach the start of the given quests. It'd be like going for your daily treasure chest by, instead of pushing through a beastman stronghold complete with alarm systems, simply flying over to just above the chest, dropping in, looting, and leaving.

If you were made to do it without flight once, then that's great. If this is a repeatable quest, then there's no reason to block flying to get there again. Make all the dangers be present at the quest site so you'll still have to fight there when you drop down.

That reads equally to "if you can be minimally geared before the average player has 20% more item level, you can be minimally geared thereafter" or "if you could join a FATE party without having unlocked flight in Hour 1 of an expansion, you can join a FATE party without flight thereafter." That's not how multiplayer games work.

That something is technically possible does not make it a legit, let alone unpunished, choice.

That's not how multiplayer works when it involves very difficult content. But for easier content, it is absolutely how it works. I've done world quests on the ground in BfA while everyone else had flight.

As for being punishing, that is a matter of design issue. If it was a hunt party in FFXIV, that would be punishing. If it was world quest in WoW, in my experience, it's less punishing.

And like I said, it's a choice. There are people who willingly do min ilvl content in FFXIV when they don't need to. Similarly, unlock flight and then choose when you want to fly and when you want to be on the ground.

That's not my point. To apply your definition of content as it regarded travel, if I did not care about actually killing the boss, only looting it, then killing could not be content -- only looting it would be.

The only reason for looting to become content with flight is when content is made without flight in mind. With flight in mind, once you get there, you still have to deal with enemies instead of just looting. So the content is still about fighting enemies to get the loot.

And I would be fine with that. But it's merely a question of degree, of when one has "completed" the zone. You say all MSQ + one of each FATE (World Quest) = complete. The current model is MSQ plus about a dozen Emissary quests and some relevant post-cap questlines = complete. (Rep bonus rates, though I don't know why anyone would 'grind' this outside of rep bonus weeks.)

It's a matter of degree that actually has significant effect.

[Shurrikhan]

It's a matter of degree that actually has significant effect.

As most matters of degree will. I'm just pointing out that it's commensurate to that game's take on what having "completed" a place's open world content looks like. Like you, I'd prefer earlier unlocks (or, remaining requirements being reduced over time), but that design paradigm isn't 'wrong' so much as simply suiting a different context.

If you were made to do it without flight once, then that's great. If this is a repeatable quest, then there's no reason to block flying to get there again. Make all the dangers be present at the quest site so you'll still have to fight there when you drop down.

Ideally, I'd agree with you, but that's also badly limiting. Imagine, for instance, a zone with many distinct sections with various dangers bordering them. If normally going down south to a few world quests in the Ruins area required that I first take a boat down the river, surviving croc attacks to even get there, or pass through dense jungle rife with panthers, that's still a (enjoyable, imo) component of the open world's dangers that obviously isn't going to be suitably reproducible in each separate activity. Much of the interest of the open world is its connections, its pathing, its optimizing around risks and time taken. All that is gone if you reduce everything therein to isolated activities. That's kind of what separates open world play from our tiny square or circle typical instances in the first place.

To back up just a bit:

My preferred model, again, is for the open world to be designed to be interesting even under whatever particular tools, ground and flying mounts included (though I'd always go the way of GW2's Griffin over "true", WoW/XIV-like, physics-less free flight), a player may have. It should feel like a playground and optimizing to reduce time or risk should be a real thing, but that requires also it not be simply a single, cheap solution (like limitless flight in a world without aerial threats).

Few MMOs manage that, period, and not just because they letter wreck it with unfettered flight; for many (imo, XIV included) there was little to nothing there to begin with. But, in the few instances where we've seen decent examples of world design, it looks really lucrative, and I'd hate to see that lost over some assumed obligation that everything be made as quick as possible (i.e., that because flight could exist, it should exist, and should exist asap). In that ideal world, I probably wouldn't lock flight behind grinds, but I might well make it a rare mount for which that flight is the only unique power, and I'd try to futureproof the zone around players' eventually acquiring it (as much to give them more fun in the joy of movement they might have via that flight as to curtail what elements they'd otherwise degrade for themselves).

[linayar]

As most matters of degree will. I'm just pointing out that it's commensurate to that game's take on what having "completed" a place's open world content looks like. Like you, I'd prefer earlier unlocks (or, remaining requirements being reduced over time), but that design paradigm isn't 'wrong' so much as simply suiting a different context.

I don't think I've ever argued over whether it's right or wrong. I simply don't like it because grounding me to such an extent does not make me appreciate the zone/the world, but actually does the opposite. But it obviously works for them, which is why I don't see them changing it.

Ideally, I'd agree with you, but that's also badly limiting. Imagine, for instance, a zone with many distinct sections with various dangers bordering them. If normally going down south to a few world quests in the Ruins area required that I first take a boat down the river, surviving croc attacks to even get there, or pass through dense jungle rife with panthers, that's still a (enjoyable, imo) component of the open world's dangers that obviously isn't going to be suitably reproducible in each separate activity. Much of the interest of the open world is its connections, its pathing, its optimizing around risks and time taken. All that is gone if you reduce everything therein to isolated activities. That's kind of what separates open world play from our tiny square or circle typical instances in the first place.

I deally, that would be the case. In reality, from my own personal experience, none of that matters any more within the first week of exploring the zone. As soon as I know where to go and the awe and wonder of seeing a new zone has worn off, it's just how much of a straight line I can make to my destination. And since I don't pvp, there is minimal danger, especially with enough gear upgrades.

To back up just a bit:

My preferred model, again, is for the open world to be designed to be interesting even under whatever particular tools, ground and flying mounts included (though I'd always go the way of GW2's Griffin over "true", WoW/XIV-like, physics-less free flight), a player may have. It should feel like a playground and optimizing to reduce time or risk should be a real thing, but that requires also it not be simply a single, cheap solution (like limitless flight in a world without aerial threats).

Few MMOs manage that, period, and not just because they letter wreck it with unfettered flight; for many (imo, XIV included) there was little to nothing there to begin with. But, in the few instances where we've seen decent examples of world design, it looks really lucrative, and I'd hate to see that lost over some assumed obligation that everything be made as quick as possible (i.e., that because flight could exist, it should exist, and should exist asap). In that ideal world, I probably wouldn't lock flight behind grinds, but I might well make it a rare mount for which that flight is the only unique power, and I'd try to futureproof the zone around players' eventually acquiring it (as much to give them more fun in the joy of movement they might have via that flight as to curtail what elements they'd otherwise degrade for themselves).

And that's the thing, for me, grounding me for months in the hopes of getting me to enjoy the zone more doesn't work when all I'm doing are dailies and there is nothing interesting on the way to those dailies.

I enjoyed the zone the first time through and unlocking flight sooner would allow me to enjoy it more. That's why, even though FFXIV's zones are more boring in terms of having things to do for me (I don't care for hunts/fates/gathering, maps only with FC, beast tribes depends on the mood), I enjoy them a whole lot more than WoW's zones just in doing MSQ and unlocking flight and then flying around.

[Lunalepsy]

I want to play Blue Protocol!

[Shiro--Tsubasa]

So not played WOW yet.....

I recommend checking out Guild Wars 2. It actually has a Necromancer class and its minion build is popular in the open world. When you get far enough and get elite specializations you can even unlock Reaper spec if you have Heart of Thorns. It allows Necromancer to use a claymore which can be quite fun as well. The base game is free iirc so you'd lose nothing for trying it out.