Final Fantasy 14 Players trying WOW?

[Melorie]

Let me apologize for my lack of clarity in my post. I realize that I failed to point out that I was responding to the "value your time" question and confusion regarding it. Basically, FFXIV values your time by giving you the freedom to play other games at any time while not feeling like you won't be able to raid when you return. This is currently not the case in WoW, where they give you a constant stream of necessary busywork that you must be able to complete all the time in order to be able to do the content that you want to do. So while both games do have a grind (as all MMO's do), in FFXIV you are not trapped in this grind treadmill. You can play other games if you want and not be behind when you return to do the newest patch content. In fact, Yoshi-P even encourages players to take breaks from the game because he understands that the player's time is valuable. WoW, on the other hand, gives you a bunch of tasks and chores that must be done - see all the videos on youtube on unlocking flying in Zerith Mortis, for example, and compare that to how easy it is to unlock flying in Endwalker. The whole flying thing is a simple example of valuing the players's time.

Oh, it wasn't really you're specifically talking about valuing time! But it is thrown a lot about people discussing MMOs in general, specially WoW. My point is, isn't these things - these grinds per se - part of playing the game, though? Don't get me wrong, I also enjoy how FFXIV chooses to do things, but at the same time, I don't blame someone that doesn't and prefer the feeling of progression that harder grinds give you. Getting the mount that flies in Guild Wars is a grind as well, but something I find enjoyable. I get that it's not everyone cup of tea though, but there's an audience for this kind of thing. I love grinding for things in Ragnarok Online or Monster Hunter - hours spent killing the same mobs over and over again to get a rare drop or a specific amount of xp. When I'm finished, after a long time, I actually feel pretty good about my progress, like I actually spent time on it. It's weirdly relaxing.

So, even though I enjoy FFXIV approach to things, I don't feel like EVERY game should follow it and that games that doesn't are not respecting players. Some games are meant to be a bigger time sink, and there's nothing wrong with that besides preference. If anything, these games value your time differently - the time you spent playing it actually gives you a bigger sense of progression, whereas in FFXIV you put very little time in order to achieve most things. I don't play and never played WoW, so I can't say if it is the type of grind I would enjoy, for example (I don't enjoy every grind), what I mean is that some people play MMOs because they offer time-sink and sense of progression.

[Shurrikhan]

Basically, FFXIV values your time by giving you the freedom to play other games at any time while not feeling like you won't be able to raid when you return.

Does it, though? The fall-off on blind/learner parties and the increase in ilvl requirements per week past a given raid tier's release are more significant here than in WoW, GW2, or the like. Moreover, considerably more value is locked behind weekly caps, especially for players who cannot yet (be that due to work schedules, learner party scarcity, or having already fallen behind on the ilvl grind as requirements exceed what can be met by crafted gear) do Savage.

This is currently not the case in WoW, where they give you a constant stream of necessary busywork that you must be able to complete all the time in order to be able to do the content that you want to do.

You could get by with doing none of that busywork more easily there than you could with skipping your Astrology caps alone here, though?

in FFXIV you are not trapped in this grind treadmill.

But, you are. You absolutely are. Ilvl requirements, no matter how much you wish to solely blame the community for them, make maintaining one's place on that treadmill a necessity while each tier of gear lasts for less time here than it does in WoW (largely due to a lack of unique gear pieces that can synergize with particular kits for greater relative longevity, much like what we've seen among some XI pieces).

Worse, unlike the seasonal currency caps of WoW, XIV current-tier currency follows strict weekly caps, not allowing one to make up for any week's time lost to overtime work or week+-long rotations, etc.

In fact, Yoshi-P even encourages players to take breaks from the game because he understands that the player's time is valuable.

Since the game's release in 2004, WoW's load-in screen has likewise advised taking breaks, sometimes from the game entirely, as not to get burned out or lose that sense of adventure. Both encouragements are irrelevant to the games' designs, though. The only thing of import there is how much content desirable to a given player is likely to be, in practice and in context, closed off to someone as a result of declining that grind for some period of time. Right now, that punishment is worse in XIV than in WoW. (That's not to say that WoW doesn't have its own problems, such as unnecessarily long initial investment time to actually go and do content, much like if we had to go through a 6.1 to 6.5's worth of MSQ just to go and do even floors 1-4 of Pandaemonium, but the cost for taking a break there is typically less than here.)

WoW, on the other hand, gives you a bunch of tasks and chores that must be done - see all the videos on youtube on unlocking flying in Zerith Mortis, for example, and compare that to how easy it is to unlock flying in Endwalker.

Flight is not a necessity, though, nor is it relevant to anything other than doing those same "tasks and chores" in that same zone that, themselves, unlock flight in that zone. The system of flight unlocks simply causes the bonuses it allows for to become quicker to acquire around the same time those rewards would otherwise see too diminished of returns (as you've already collected all the base gear and upgrading it gets increasingly expensive) to be worth doing. It therefore increases options: you can simply stop there or you can make use of the increased efficiency to continue upgrading items as an alternative to doing raiding, etc., if you want raid-equivalent gear but are too anxious or unfortunately scheduled to actually raid.
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This character is currently some portion through Stormblood, lvl 70, and I can't fly there. I also can't fly in Heavensward, because I didn't take the time to explore every single nook and cranny of the world to get the currents. I don't even know how many I need. I have no idea how long it will take to get flying, just that I really can't get it until I don't need it so much anymore.

Sorry for the edit; I ran out of daily posts.

Go to Actions & Traits -> Travel -> Aether Currents. It'll let you know how many quests and nodes you still need for the given zone. With some few exceptions (e.g., the Lochs), getting flight for a zone is a quick, painless process. The system merely makes you finish the zone's MSQ and explore most of its notable sites before allowing you to ignore any and all of its topography.

If you haven't been using your Aether Compass already, note that it is now weirdly hidden behind /collection. I'd recommend click-and-dragging it to your hotbar(s) for easy use. It'll tell you how far the nearest node is and in what direction. I'd just hit it periodically as you follow the MSQ, at first grabbing only what's close, and finish them off while doing the final side-quests necessary for flight unlock in the zone.

Getting flying here is far far better than it's been in WoW since they stopped using flight training and switched to Pathfinder in WoD.

Quicker, not necessarily better.

The goals are alike in both cases; you can't get flight in either game until you're done with their respective zones. It's merely a difference of WoW considering the open world still a real part of the game even after you've finished the zone's main questline. After several hours of doing world content across the expansion's zones, you have your flight because that's about the point at which they determined you've experienced all even those who like open world stuff would care to experience in full and you're effectively "done" with those zones. In both cases, flight is essentially a post-content bonus, not considered a necessity for while said content is still relatively new or in play.

[KitKatnip]

Oh, it wasn't really you're specifically talking about valuing time! But it is thrown a lot about people discussing MMOs in general, specially WoW. My point is, isn't these things - these grinds per se - part of playing the game, though? Don't get me wrong, I also enjoy how FFXIV chooses to do things, but at the same time, I don't blame someone that doesn't and prefer the feeling of progression that harder grinds give you. Getting the mount that flies in Guild Wars is a grind as well, but something I find enjoyable. I get that it's not everyone cup of tea though, but there's an audience for this kind of thing. I love grinding for things in Ragnarok Online or Monster Hunter - hours spent killing the same mobs over and over again to get a rare drop or a specific amount of xp. When I'm finished, after a long time, I actually feel pretty good about my progress, like I actually spent time on it. It's weirdly relaxing.

So, even though I enjoy FFXIV approach to things, I don't feel like EVERY game should follow it and that games that doesn't are not respecting players. Some games are meant to be a bigger time sink, and there's nothing wrong with that besides preference. If anything, these games value your time differently - the time you spent playing it actually gives you a bigger sense of progression, whereas in FFXIV you put very little time in order to achieve most things. I don't play and never played WoW, so I can't say if it is the type of grind I would enjoy, for example (I don't enjoy every grind), what I mean is that some people play MMOs because they offer time-sink and sense of progression.

I haven't tried to get them myself, but I understand Relic Weapons are quite the grind if you want to get them. There is some optional grindy content if you want to do it for the status symbol. The title from doing Palace of the Dead is another one (The Necromancer title for doing floors 1-200 solo).

[KitKatnip]

Since the game's release in 2004, WoW's load-in screen has likewise advised taking breaks, sometimes from the game entirely, as not to get burned out or lose that sense of adventure. Both encouragements are irrelevant to the games' designs, though. The only thing of import there is how much content desirable to a given player is likely to be, in practice and in context, closed off to someone as a result of declining that grind for some period of time. Right now, that punishment is worse in XIV than in WoW. (That's not to say that WoW doesn't have its own problems, such as unnecessarily long initial investment time to actually go and do content, much like if we had to go through a 6.1 to 6.5's worth of MSQ just to go and do even floors 1-4 of Pandaemonium, but the cost for taking a break there is typically less than here.)

I find it ironic that WoW's screen tells players to take breaks while the content they push out encourages players to continuously play or be left behind. There's so many systems you have to do for WoW, currents and conduits and covenants and soulbindis and legendaries and Torghast and so on just to Raid. It boggles the mind. I'm not a raider so I am not the one out there jumping through hoops to get all the things done in order to raid. It seems to me WoW has a lot more hoops to jump through than FFXIV.

[Garruss]

You couldn't pay me to go back to play wow

[Ath192]

Does it, though? The fall-off on blind/learner parties and the increase in ilvl requirements per week past a given raid tier's release are more significant here than in WoW, GW2, or the like. Moreover, considerably more value is locked behind weekly caps, especially for players who cannot yet (be that due to work schedules, learner party scarcity, or having already fallen behind on the ilvl grind as requirements exceed what can be met by crafted gear) do Savage.

This is such a stretch it made me laugh. I don’t play or know WOW but your statements about XIV raiding are patently false. I could come back 6 months later towards the end of a raid tier and just buy the MB gear in 5 mins, meld only the two slots that are guaranteed look at some guides and still find enough learner parties in PF to clear the tier. I’ve seen it happen for years.

Moreover, this assuming I wanted to do things the hard way. If you wanna join ffxiv recruiter or other data center specific raiding discords they always have statics recruiting for savage and they even have sections full of bored raiders that can help you clear no problem outside of a static context. They’re even BIS already so damage checks are a joke.

In fact it’s not surprising to find people who resub when the raid tier takes the loot limit off to clear it then and gear up in less than a week if they’re needing the BIS for an ultimate.

Like sure there’s people that ilvl limit their parties but those aren’t too common and let’s be real, it should be taken as a red flag. However, it’s possible that I’ve been doing this for so long a new player wouldn’t know all this and feel lost. As for the time cap, it’s exactly 2 and a half hours a week of game time to cap it and again, optional as the crafted gear is enough. However ppl tend to farm it because if they have time for savage, they have time for an expert roulette.

[EzekielBook]

People are jumping on flying, so here's flight from a leveling perspective:
In WoW, you get flight at lvl 30. Doesn't matter where you are, what you're doing, at lvl 30, you can buy flight training. At lvl 40, you can buy faster flight. That flying is good for all expansions except the current one (Shadowlands) and the previous one (Battle for Azeroth). If you're leveling your character in BfA, by the time you hit lvl 40, you'll be a good chunk of the way to have the requirements for flying in that zone. Additionally flying in older zones is an account-bound achievement, so all your characters will be able to purchase flying without having to grind the achievement. Now, flying in the current zone is a bit of a grind, but, again, you get most of it just by playing through the campaign storyline, and essentially just waiting out the time limits (which don't exist for new players - you can grind out flying fairly quickly, actually).

In FF, you get flying in ARR fairly easily, just by doing the MSQ. But all the others? You're doing a lot of exploring, and in zones that will either be too difficult at the start *or* that you just plain can't get to because they're blocked by lack of progression in the MSQ. This character is currently some portion through Stormblood, lvl 70, and I can't fly there. I also can't fly in Heavensward, because I didn't take the time to explore every single nook and cranny of the world to get the currents. I don't even know how many I need. I have no idea how long it will take to get flying, just that I really can't get it until I don't need it so much anymore.

WoW has changed how flying works many times over the years - they might well change it again, although they seem to like the current system of needing rep with some faction or another to get it. But if you're getting into the game *now*, not flying isn't going to stop you for very long. And getting into the game *now* is what the thread was about.

[Yuella]

I tried during Legion (Starter Edition) and I enjoyed it a lot. Got 3 characters to level 20. But I couldn't afford 2 MMO subscription so i didn't continue.
I tried again recently. I think Exile's Reach is pretty good. Better than FFXIV new player experience but getting thrown directly to BfA storyline made me lose interest.

[Jojoya]

People are jumping on flying, so here's flight from a leveling perspective:
In WoW, you get flight at lvl 30. Doesn't matter where you are, what you're doing, at lvl 30, you can buy flight training. At lvl 40, you can buy faster flight. That flying is good for all expansions except the current one (Shadowlands) and the previous one (Battle for Azeroth). If you're leveling your character in BfA, by the time you hit lvl 40, you'll be a good chunk of the way to have the requirements for flying in that zone. Additionally flying in older zones is an account-bound achievement, so all your characters will be able to purchase flying without having to grind the achievement. Now, flying in the current zone is a bit of a grind, but, again, you get most of it just by playing through the campaign storyline, and essentially just waiting out the time limits (which don't exist for new players - you can grind out flying fairly quickly, actually).

In FF, you get flying in ARR fairly easily, just by doing the MSQ. But all the others? You're doing a lot of exploring, and in zones that will either be too difficult at the start *or* that you just plain can't get to because they're blocked by lack of progression in the MSQ. This character is currently some portion through Stormblood, lvl 70, and I can't fly there. I also can't fly in Heavensward, because I didn't take the time to explore every single nook and cranny of the world to get the currents. I don't even know how many I need. I have no idea how long it will take to get flying, just that I really can't get it until I don't need it so much anymore.

WoW has changed how flying works many times over the years - they might well change it again, although they seem to like the current system of needing rep with some faction or another to get it. But if you're getting into the game *now*, not flying isn't going to stop you for very long. And getting into the game *now* is what the thread was about.

And WoW only changed access to flying because they're steadily losing players due to their lack of respect for player time.

They still don't respect player time with the end game grinds they're forcing players through before they're able to fly in end game zones.

You've got a rather distorted view of obtaining flying here, probably because you assumed it would be just as grindy as Pathfinder. It's not.

Grab the exploration aether currents as you do MSQ - they're right along the MSQ path. Zones like Fringes and Peaks are not a problem because the MSQ will return you to the other half of those zones later in the story. You'll be able to unlock the remaining currents at that time.

Do the sides quests that unlock currents as you go as well. When you complete the final MSQ quest for a zone, flying unlocks as long as you've acquired all the other currents (the last or next to last MSQ quest for a zone rewards the final current needed).

Doing it as you go only takes about an extra 10 minutes per zone (not including the currents unlocked by dungeon side quests). Doing it after you finish MSQ means about 30-45 minutes to unlock flying per zone.

I've had flying in every Endwalker zone since I completed the MSQ on December 7th. That was less than 5 days to unlock flying for an entire expansion.

Compare that to Pathfinder that had players gated without flying for several months. Compare that to the reports from the 9.2 PTR that say it's going to take players several weeks to unlock flying in a single zone.

Getting flying here is far far better than it's been in WoW since they stopped using flight training and switched to Pathfinder in WoD.

edit: to see how many currents you still need in a zone, go to Aether Currents in the Travel menu. Zones are grouped by expansion.

Top row of diamonds - currents unlocked by MSQ or side quest. Yellow are completed.
Bottom row of diamonds - currents unlocked by exploration. Green are completed.

[Melorie]

I haven't tried to get them myself, but I understand Relic Weapons are quite the grind if you want to get them. There is some optional grindy content if you want to do it for the status symbol. The title from doing Palace of the Dead is another one (The Necromancer title for doing floors 1-200 solo).

Personally I don't care much about status, I do like completing stuff though and feeling that I earned that. Like, building your island in Animal Crossing is a pain in the butt, but it also makes you proud for putting the hard work. Regarding the relic weapon, I haven't done much of them, except Zeta (ARR) and Anima (HW). I enjoyed Zeta, except the dungeon grind. I don't mind grinding open world mobs but dungeons, specially in FFXIV, it hurts the grinding flow I enjoy.

I did like the book's part though, it wasn't bad! Anima is mostly buying items with your poetic ad infinitum and spend one hour doing Alexander with peeps for light farm. I wasn't interested enough in SB/SHB relics in order to do them, so I can't speak for those, but if you do the relics steps at launch it's far from being a grind since you have the window between patches drop, I remember that in ShB there were steps that could be completed easily in a day and some friends praised Square for that.
Anyway, the relic weapon as far as I understand was actually seem as a casual content, so people could still get the ""best"" weapon at the end of the expansion if they worked a bit on it every patch.