Final Fantasy 14 Players trying WOW?

[KitKatnip]

I played a lot of Wrath and Cata. Tried going back for nostalgia feels early last year. The game has changed for the worse. You can't play the way you want to. They push everyone into Shadowlands as quickly as possible and it completely ruins any story the old expansions had. You can't do the old dungeons without Chromie Time. You can't do the old zones without Chromie Time. And Chromie time is disabled once you get to like 46 I think it was (I was expecting at least 48 but noooo) so you have to play the way the developers want you to play, which is grinding out a bunch of pointless things that get removed in the next expansion. It's a horribly designed treadmill to keep you subbed and playing as long as possible so their numbers look good for the shareholders. Very disappointing.

[Shurrikhan]

Not a defense of WoW, but there's a lot of misinformation in the above post.

You can't play the way you want to.

Unless what you want to do is to play every prior expansion on a single character (which you can still do, technically), there's nothing constraining you.

You can't do the old dungeons without Chromie Time.

You can, more so than you could before. Whereas before you could queue for a given dungeon for some 5 levels' span over 120 total levels, now you can queue for it for some 10-15 levels' span over 60 total levels.

You can't do the old zones without Chromie Time.

You can, again, more so than you could before. Even without Chromie Time, Vanilla zones will take you up to level 30, iirc, 60% of the way to pre-expansion, rather than only 50% as before (up to 60 out of 120).

And Chromie time is disabled once you get to like 46 I think it was (I was expecting at least 48 but noooo)

It's disabled only after reaching level 50. You can access the starting quest for Shadowlands until 48 but it doesn't push you towards it until 50.
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Separately, as these are just a little odd...

so you have to play the way the developers want you to play,

Every reward system does this. This is equally true of our challenge logs and daily roulettes, for instance.

which is grinding out a bunch of pointless things that get removed in the next expansion.

You'll find this, likewise, true of most modern MMOs, including this one. Our relics lose their relevance as anything but glamour only some 4 levels into each following expansion. Gear loses its relevance with every tier's release. Etc., etc.

It's a horribly designed treadmill to keep you subbed and playing as long as possible so their numbers look good for the shareholders.

This, too, describes virtually every MMO.

[Shurrikhan]

Spoken as someone who doesn't remember the ARR storyline post 2.0. If all there was to complete remote quests was airships, ships at sea, and chocobo travel, players would have given up the second time they had to go from some MSQ quest location in La Noscea to the Waking Sands or Rising Stones.

Except systems don't just exist without context. Had there been no instant travel, you also wouldn't see quests designed to ping-pong you across the world with nothing else to do at the other end like our thrilling teleport-talk-teleport-deliver-teleport ARR MSQs.

[KitKatnip]

Not a defense of WoW, but there's a lot of misinformation in the above post.


Unless what you want to do is to play every prior expansion on a single character (which you can still do, technically), there's nothing constraining you.

You can, more so than you could before. Whereas before you could queue for a given dungeon for some 5 levels' span over 120 total levels, now you can queue for it for some 10-15 levels' span over 60 total levels.


You can, again, more so than you could before. Even without Chromie Time, Vanilla zones will take you up to level 30, iirc, 60% of the way to pre-expansion, rather than only 50% as before (up to 60 out of 120).


It's disabled only after reaching level 50. You can access the starting quest for Shadowlands until 48 but it doesn't push you towards it until 50.
_________________

Separately, as these are just a little odd...


Every reward system does this. This is equally true of our challenge logs and daily roulettes, for instance.

You'll find this, likewise, true of most modern MMOs, including this one. Our relics lose their relevance as anything but glamour only some 4 levels into each following expansion. Gear loses its relevance with every tier's release. Etc., etc.


This, too, describes virtually every MMO.

That was not my experience.

[Darksummoner]

I wouldn't go back to WoW even if God made me. 17 years of that game is more then enough for me. No more.

[linayar]

...

For instance, let's say flight is unlocked at certain gradations (gliding -> stamina-based flight beyond gliding -> greater stamina and increased flight/glide speeds) over X number of weeks. I.e., by the time most non-altoholics would see noticeably diminished returns for time invested in the new zone, all flight capacities are unlocked. Players can do additional activities mostly outside the normal grind loops, such as those that tend to take you out exploring in more depth, to progress towards those unlocks earlier. And with that, the zone stays more like an actual zone, rather than just a loot chest with chore-based daily keys. (Of course, whether that area of impact matters will still depend greatly upon how engaging or barebone the zone is and how its reward loops are handled.)

The main thing is that it should feel like (A) an optional investment, rather than a necessary first step, and (B) like it doesn't detract from the feeling of a zone as a zone, insofar as that can be managed.

...

I think actual progression toward full flight would be better than simply be an on-off switch with the way WoW does flight unlock, especially with the timegating. But I don't think that would be worth the effort from the devs' perspective, unlike something simple like just having multiple ground speeds.

I think the other problem with the way WoW unlock flight is that, from a personal point of view, the open world of WoW is not interesting (that said, no open world of any MMO I've played in recent years is interesting beyond questing for the main story, including FFXIV). And so, I spent more time in the open world to unlock flight than what I would on my own. It is essentially forced content for a quality-of-life feature for that said content. It just seems like backward design.

In terms of taking away from the feeling of a zone, I think being "artificially" grounded for such a lengthy amount of time does take away from the immersion in a world where flight does exist. It's fine to be grounded during leveling, but I think players should be able to fly while doing max level questing.

In regard to taking away gameplay, I think having flight should be accepted as part of it. Being able to walk, run, mount up, or fly, to decide to engage in or avoid PVP, for instance, is part of the players' choice in how they engage in the gameplay.

As for feeling lonely, make more interesting contents for people to want to go down on the ground even with flight unlocked.

But anyways, it is what it is. As it stands now, regardless of any issue people might have with FFXIV's open world, one thing I'm more than satisfied with is its flight unlock system.

[Melorie]

so you have to play the way the developers want you to play, which is grinding out a bunch of pointless things that get removed in the next expansion.

Isn't that almost every MMO? Including FFXIV. Except maybe BDO, GW2 and RO comes to mind. I don't get this argument. Maybe you don't clicked with WoW and thus, doesn't enjoy it, but these "problems" aren't exclusive to that game.

Also I see "respecting your time" a lot on this thread and this is such a vague, broad thing. Every MMO is a time-sink. Some more than others. What "respecting your time" even means? You either like doing that specific grind or you don't. Sprinkling vague sentiments such as a video-game respecting you or whatever makes no sense.

[KitKatnip]

Isn't that almost every MMO? Including FFXIV. Except maybe BDO, GW2 and RO comes to mind. I don't get this argument. Maybe you don't clicked with WoW and thus, doesn't enjoy it, but these "problems" aren't exclusive to that game.

Also I see "respecting your time" a lot on this thread and this is such a vague, broad thing. Every MMO is a time-sink. Some more than others. What "respecting your time" even means? You either like doing that specific grind or you don't. Sprinkling vague sentiments such as a video-game respecting you or whatever makes no sense.

With a new expansion you expect to have to get new gear because you are going to be a higher level. But WoW takes it a step further by forcing you to grind some mysterious artifact sand or whatever it is this go around to power up your whatsits so you have to be constantly grinding out this stuff so you can continue to increase in power. With a game like FFXIV, you run dungeons to get your tomestones to get your BiS gear (or the crafted raiding gear when it comes out). There may be a higher item level raid that comes out in a patch and then you go play and get your higher item level gear. There's none of this nonsense of grinding artifact power continuously (or whatever the new power source is you have to grind from Torghast every week now to be able to raid).

I don't understand how you can't tell the difference. Just because every MMO has some grind to it, does not mean every MMO is as excessively grindy as WoW.

[Melorie]

I don't understand how you can't tell the difference. Just because every MMO has some grind to it, does not mean every MMO is as excessively grindy as WoW.

I literally said that some MMOs are grindier than others? I just said that your problems are present in almost every MMO, it's how most MMOs are designed.

[KitKatnip]

I literally said that some MMOs are grindier than others? I just said that your problems are present in almost every MMO, it's how most MMOs are designed.

Let me apologize for my lack of clarity in my post. I realize that I failed to point out that I was responding to the "value your time" question and confusion regarding it. Basically, FFXIV values your time by giving you the freedom to play other games at any time while not feeling like you won't be able to raid when you return. This is currently not the case in WoW, where they give you a constant stream of necessary busywork that you must be able to complete all the time in order to be able to do the content that you want to do. So while both games do have a grind (as all MMO's do), in FFXIV you are not trapped in this grind treadmill. You can play other games if you want and not be behind when you return to do the newest patch content. In fact, Yoshi-P even encourages players to take breaks from the game because he understands that the player's time is valuable. WoW, on the other hand, gives you a bunch of tasks and chores that must be done - see all the videos on youtube on unlocking flying in Zerith Mortis, for example, and compare that to how easy it is to unlock flying in Endwalker. The whole flying thing is a simple example of valuing the players's time.