Final Fantasy 14 Players trying WOW?

[linayar]

Not everyone thinks of actually interacting with the open world as inherently disrespectful of one's time

I think the problem is that the open world in WoW is made in such a way that people feel it is not right to allow others to unlock flying before them. The idea is that, for you to enjoy being grounded, everybody else has to be grounded as well.

So the whole flying unlock is forced upon everyone even if some of them want to fly as that's how they prefer to engage with the open world of WoW. I get that you can't please everyone. Even in FFXIV, some people think aether currents is too much of a requirement for flight unlock. But I do think pathfinder and this new system in 9.2 is a bit extreme.

[Shurrikhan]

I think the problem is that the open world in WoW is made in such a way that people feel it is not right to allow others to unlock flying before them. The idea is that, for you to enjoy being grounded, everybody else has to be grounded as well.

So the whole flying unlock is forced upon everyone even if some of them want to fly as that's how they prefer to engage with the open world of WoW. I get that you can't please everyone. Even in FFXIV, some people think aether currents is too much of a requirement for flight unlock. But I do think pathfinder and this new system in 9.2 is a bit extreme.

I get that. I actually really like navigating topography, myself, so long as the zone is well done and makes that interesting (think gliders and grappling hooks in Stormheim and Zulda'zar or High Mountain, respectively), and I do agree that if there's an easy means of removing that element of gameplay then it makes it feel like that might as well not exist, so I tend to prefer something more like the late-Legion catchup systems.

For instance, let's say flight is unlocked at certain gradations (gliding -> stamina-based flight beyond gliding -> greater stamina and increased flight/glide speeds) over X number of weeks. I.e., by the time most non-altoholics would see noticeably diminished returns for time invested in the new zone, all flight capacities are unlocked. Players can do additional activities mostly outside the normal grind loops, such as those that tend to take you out exploring in more depth, to progress towards those unlocks earlier. And with that, the zone stays more like an actual zone, rather than just a loot chest with chore-based daily keys. (Of course, whether that area of impact matters will still depend greatly upon how engaging or barebone the zone is and how its reward loops are handled.)

The main thing is that it should feel like (A) an optional investment, rather than a necessary first step, and (B) like it doesn't detract from the feeling of a zone as a zone, insofar as that can be managed.

(In the same vein, I'd say, for instance, that no Anima ought to have been required for Covenant Teleporters, Command Tables, or the like, as their increase to later efficiency, even if you ended up too burned out after getting them to reap their rewards, made them feel obligatory. I'd rather they had simply gained tiers of access from Renown ranks themselves and any anima then be spendable on gear and cosmetics. Of course, not having those teleporters doesn't much increase immersion, as it's mostly just cutting out the generic between-zone flightpath travel, and the Command Tables are already restricted by follower acquisition and levels, so I wouldn't mind them being almost instantly unlockable, regardless of Renown, either. I just don't feel that the likes of the 9.1 and 9.2 zones, though they in particular were nothing special, especially compared to Nazjatar and Gnomeragon or the likes of Legion's bonus zones, would similarly face no costs to gameplay from immediately unlocked flight.)

[linayar]

...

For instance, let's say flight is unlocked at certain gradations (gliding -> stamina-based flight beyond gliding -> greater stamina and increased flight/glide speeds) over X number of weeks. I.e., by the time most non-altoholics would see noticeably diminished returns for time invested in the new zone, all flight capacities are unlocked. Players can do additional activities mostly outside the normal grind loops, such as those that tend to take you out exploring in more depth, to progress towards those unlocks earlier. And with that, the zone stays more like an actual zone, rather than just a loot chest with chore-based daily keys. (Of course, whether that area of impact matters will still depend greatly upon how engaging or barebone the zone is and how its reward loops are handled.)

The main thing is that it should feel like (A) an optional investment, rather than a necessary first step, and (B) like it doesn't detract from the feeling of a zone as a zone, insofar as that can be managed.

...

I think actual progression toward full flight would be better than simply be an on-off switch with the way WoW does flight unlock, especially with the timegating. But I don't think that would be worth the effort from the devs' perspective, unlike something simple like just having multiple ground speeds.

I think the other problem with the way WoW unlock flight is that, from a personal point of view, the open world of WoW is not interesting (that said, no open world of any MMO I've played in recent years is interesting beyond questing for the main story, including FFXIV). And so, I spent more time in the open world to unlock flight than what I would on my own. It is essentially forced content for a quality-of-life feature for that said content. It just seems like backward design.

In terms of taking away from the feeling of a zone, I think being "artificially" grounded for such a lengthy amount of time does take away from the immersion in a world where flight does exist. It's fine to be grounded during leveling, but I think players should be able to fly while doing max level questing.

In regard to taking away gameplay, I think having flight should be accepted as part of it. Being able to walk, run, mount up, or fly, to decide to engage in or avoid PVP, for instance, is part of the players' choice in how they engage in the gameplay.

As for feeling lonely, make more interesting contents for people to want to go down on the ground even with flight unlocked.

But anyways, it is what it is. As it stands now, regardless of any issue people might have with FFXIV's open world, one thing I'm more than satisfied with is its flight unlock system.

[Shurrikhan]

I think actual progression toward full flight would be better than simply be an on-off switch with the way WoW does flight unlock, especially with the timegating.

Agreed. It's odd, then, that they decided to move from exactly that (alternate tools and supplementary systems, such as rockets, hooks, and gliders -> rentals and limited flight -> unlimited but slower fight -> unlimited and full-speed flight) to what we see now. It was from their having already had and done all that that I suggested those gradations.

I think the other problem with the way WoW unlock flight is that, from a personal point of view, the open world of WoW is not interesting (that said, no open world of any MMO I've played in recent years is interesting beyond questing for the main story, including FFXIV). And so, I spent more time in the open world to unlock flight than what I would on my own. It is essentially forced content for a quality-of-life feature for that said content. It just seems like backward design.

I'd have to greatly disagree. Not every WoW zone has incredible design, but atop what all aspects of visuals alone by which the better among WoW's zones may already rival the better among XIV's, there's far more interesting use of topography and, outside of scaled areas (or prior to their becoming entirely player-scaled), mob diversity.

In regard to taking away gameplay, I think having flight should be accepted as part of it. Being able to walk, run, mount up, or fly, to decide to engage in or avoid PVP, for instance, is part of the players' choice in how they engage in the gameplay.

I disagree, so long as the zone or world affected is threatening by ground but not by air, as is typically the case initially in new WoW zones. I'd of course prefer to see them simply add aerial threats, but such is easier said than done. (And could you imagine XIV attempting that, given that its Z axis is basically a non-factor and mobs able to hit you from some 40 yalms below?)

I'm also not sure how or why PvP would factor into it. In WoW, one simply chooses to or not to partake in world PvP. Before that was the case, moreover, flying mounts (though sometimes a boon for those disadvantaged by massively lopsided faction populations in a given zone, if there was cover enough to go unseen) were known almost solely to cheapen any form of world PvP. Since PvE objectives would require grounding, flight in the open world with PvP unlocked (as on the old PvP Servers) always carried a "third-party" or "ambusher's" advantage, since one could immediately attack from their 310% movement speed flying mount at the nearest moment of opportunity but the defender could not similarly avoid this threat without being held at a stalemate, unable to leave their mount. Given the power of movement skills and CC in the game, the existence of mere ground mounts did not necessitate the same stalemates nor advantage higher gearer, burstier players (as to make them unable to see reprisal by most classes due to how quickly they can engage, kill, and escape) in the way that flight did. Since Burning Crusade, flight has led to more kills and yet fewer actual 'fights' so to speak (a smaller portion of kills contributing to 'Honorable Kill' counts) and generated to generally lower opinion of the game's World PvP. It forgoes holding, threatening, or taking ground, navigating around one another, etc., in favor of punishing whoever first partakes in PvE elements.

In terms of taking away from the feeling of a zone, I think being "artificially" grounded for such a lengthy amount of time does take away from the immersion in a world where flight does exist.

As for feeling lonely, make more interesting contents for people to want to go down on the ground even with flight unlocked.

My apologies for reordering your comments, but I wanted to address them as coupled as my response is interlinked.

I agree that so long as flight exists, seeming to suddenly un-learn how to fly is... well, bull, unless there's an obvious difference in the environment as would affect flight.

For that reason, when I first heard that HW was to have flight I --in naive, pipedream fashion-- hoped that we'd have literal (air/aether) currents that'd supplement a stamina-based flight system. You might, for instance, take a sprinting start before diving off a cliff into a deep ravine, catching a current that passes down and through the chasm, refilling stamina even as you glide or hover (chocobos' obviously aether-assisted flapping). In such a way, topography would still be relevant and, since you'd have to figure out where these (air/aether) currents flowed and how they shifted over the course of the day or different weather patterns, there'd still be an element of progression: there'd be the real, player knowledge component and then perhaps a further, subtle artificial "attunement" bonus by which stamina costs could be decreased and max speed increased with time spent in the zone or along its currents, etc. It'd neither require suspension of disbelief as our mounts repeatedly forgets how to fly just because this zone is arid and has no river instead being arid and split by a river, etc. Instead, flight would only be as different as the zone's topography and a bit of arbitrating randomness (especially if air and aether currents aren't quite one and the same).

But alas.

But anyways, it is what it is. As it stands now, regardless of any issue people might have with FFXIV's open world, one thing I'm more than satisfied with is its flight unlock system.

Same, though locking it behind the extra few sidestory quests seems a little odd to me, even if I understand that it aids the questmakers' ability to slightly push their curation upon the players. I'd still love some actual flight physics and the aforementioned unlock system, though.

[linayar]

Quicker, not necessarily better.

The goals are alike in both cases; you can't get flight in either game until you're done with their respective zones. It's merely a difference of WoW considering the open world still a real part of the game even after you've finished the zone's main questline. After several hours of doing world content across the expansion's zones, you have your flight because that's about the point at which they determined you've experienced all even those who like open world stuff would care to experience in full and you're effectively "done" with those zones. In both cases, flight is essentially a post-content bonus, not considered a necessity for while said content is still relatively new or in play.

I do not think having flight makes the open world not a real part of the game.

As for flight being a post-content bonus, even someone who only does the MSQ in FFXIV will still go through the open world for patch MSQ content. And there are other things you can do besides the MSQ, like side quests, FATEs, hunts, guildleves, beast tribe dailies, gathering, and maps. All of those activities can benefit from having flight unlocked in all zones either by the last MSQ of the .0 patch or shortly after, depending on how focused you are at unlocking flight, for the rest of the expansion.

So, it's not a post-content bonus, but an optional post-(.0) MSQ bonus in FFXIV.

For WoW, there is also still more to do after unlocking flight, but I can also see why it can be considered a post-content bonus in terms of having to do a lot of content before unlocking flight and maybe moving on to a new zone, but that makes it less rewarding as a bonus in my opinion.

Agreed. It's odd, then, that they decided to move from exactly that (alternate tools and supplementary systems, such as rockets, hooks, and gliders -> rentals and limited flight -> unlimited but slower fight -> unlimited and full-speed flight) to what we see now. It was from their having already had and done all that that I suggested those gradations.

From what I've heard, they originally did not have flying in WoD. If true, not having more than a switch after an extensive requirement might make sense if they actually did not want flight in the game anymore.

I'd have to greatly disagree. Not every WoW zone has incredible design, but atop what all aspects of visuals alone by which the better among WoW's zones may already rival the better among XIV's, there's far more interesting use of topography and, outside of scaled areas (or prior to their becoming entirely player-scaled), mob diversity.

I don't know if we're necessarily in disagreement here, but I'm just saying that I personally need more than that to go to a zone. And WoW locks flight behind all of the reasons that I would go to the zones.

Interesting use of topography and mob diversity can be shown off during the leveling process of questing. And once you've unlocked flight, mob diversity can still be appreciated by having appropriate quests while topography can be appreciated on a grander scale from above.

I disagree, so long as the zone or world affected is threatening by ground but not by air, as is typically the case initially in new WoW zones. I'd of course prefer to see them simply add aerial threats, but such is easier said than done. (And could you imagine XIV attempting that, given that its Z axis is basically a non-factor and mobs able to hit you from some 40 yalms below?)

Outside of having aerial threats, I think being grounded during leveling is more than enough to show off the threats in the ground. Any further threats can be focused on the nature of the quests themselves as you'll still go down to do the questing. And with WoW being more willing to just have you go on a quest to kill various enemies on the ground, having flight doesn't remove those threats as you still need to engage with them to complete your quests.

I'm also not sure how or why PvP would factor into it. In WoW, one simply chooses to or not to partake in world PvP. Before that was the case, moreover, flying mounts (though sometimes a boon for those disadvantaged by massively lopsided faction populations in a given zone, if there was cover enough to go unseen) were known almost solely to cheapen any form of world PvP. Since PvE objectives would require grounding, flight in the open world with PvP unlocked (as on the old PvP Servers) always carried a "third-party" or "ambusher's" advantage, since one could immediately attack from their 310% movement speed flying mount at the nearest moment of opportunity but the defender could not similarly avoid this threat without being held at a stalemate, unable to leave their mount. Given the power of movement skills and CC in the game, the existence of mere ground mounts did not necessitate the same stalemates nor advantage higher gearer, burstier players (as to make them unable to see reprisal by most classes due to how quickly they can engage, kill, and escape) in the way that flight did. Since Burning Crusade, flight has led to more kills and yet fewer actual 'fights' so to speak (a smaller portion of kills contributing to 'Honorable Kill' counts) and generated to generally lower opinion of the game's World PvP. It forgoes holding, threatening, or taking ground, navigating around one another, etc., in favor of punishing whoever first partakes in PvE elements.

I think that's an acceptable risk for open world pvp. If people want more fair fights over mere killings, then that is what instanced pvp should provide (ignoring gear (and perhaps level?) differences since WoW may not normalize instanced pvp like FFXIV if I'm correct).

But now with warmode, they can just have it be a flightless mode if they really don't want flight being a factor in open world pvp.

My apologies for reordering your comments, but I wanted to address them as coupled as my response is interlinked.

I agree that so long as flight exists, seeming to suddenly un-learn how to fly is... well, bull, unless there's an obvious difference in the environment as would affect flight.

For that reason, when I first heard that HW was to have flight I --in naive, pipedream fashion-- hoped that we'd have literal (air/aether) currents that'd supplement a stamina-based flight system. You might, for instance, take a sprinting start before diving off a cliff into a deep ravine, catching a current that passes down and through the chasm, refilling stamina even as you glide or hover (chocobos' obviously aether-assisted flapping). In such a way, topography would still be relevant and, since you'd have to figure out where these (air/aether) currents flowed and how they shifted over the course of the day or different weather patterns, there'd still be an element of progression: there'd be the real, player knowledge component and then perhaps a further, subtle artificial "attunement" bonus by which stamina costs could be decreased and max speed increased with time spent in the zone or along its currents, etc. It'd neither require suspension of disbelief as our mounts repeatedly forgets how to fly just because this zone is arid and has no river instead being arid and split by a river, etc. Instead, flight would only be as different as the zone's topography and a bit of arbitrating randomness (especially if air and aether currents aren't quite one and the same).

But alas.


Same, though locking it behind the extra few sidestory quests seems a little odd to me, even if I understand that it aids the questmakers' ability to slightly push their curation upon the players. I'd still love some actual flight physics and the aforementioned unlock system, though.

With FFXIV, what you suggest might be too complicated for the game to handle. And I do prefer ARR/Azys Lla style of flight unlock, but I won't complain over the game wanting to invite people to do side quests.

[Shurrikhan]

I do not think having flight makes the open world not a real part of the game.

I would agree, though I do think it devalues topography and mob diversity, both of which are important to me until I outgear the latter into irrelevance and have gone up the same hill one too many time (YMMV).

I mentioned that position because it's one a not insignificant portion of WoW players hold and around which the devs must navigate. The devs don't care about increasing player hours played if it'd cost them subs, and the flight requirements for the new Shadowlands zones certainly already push into that territory; there would have to be, then, some other reason slightly tipping the balance, preferably beyond the persistent fallback explanation of "developers' heads stuck in their butts", especially when we see similarly pushed scales in content releases that don't typically share as many oversights or miscalculations of player wants.

From what I've heard, they originally did not have flying in WoD.

You could flight (later) in WoD. The person who gave you this information likely simply quit WoD before it was introduced, e.g., in its initial post-release drought.

I don't know if we're necessarily in disagreement here, but I'm just saying that I personally need more than that to go to a zone. And WoW locks flight behind all of the reasons that I would go to the zones.

I feel like that's, again, the core difference. In XIV, a zone is basically "done" when its MSQ is done. In WoW, relatively few of the hours you spend in a zone, unless you jump straight into higher-difficulty means of gear acquisition (forgoing all catch-up mechanics or the like), will equally or more come after having finished your leveling there.

And that, of course, accounts for only the leveling zones. Many zones in WoW are available only after level cap in their given expansion. (3 out of 8 zones in Legion, 2 of 8 in BfA, 2 of 7 in Shadowlands, etc.) Even if we replace "leveling" with the shorter "main story", those zones' intent still also include far more varied forms of interaction/content (to use equivalent terms -- Hunts, doing FATEs, treasure-finding, leveling zone-specific Trusts from local allies, farming glamours, becoming more powerful via zone-specific powers, building up your base, etc.).

Outside of having aerial threats, I think being grounded during leveling is more than enough to show off the threats in the ground. Any further threats can be focused on the nature of the quests themselves as you'll still go down to do the questing.

Again, though, many zones have literally no attached leveling, being available only after cap, and the questline themselves are just scant introduction to the areas, not the main point of their having been developed.

I think that's an acceptable risk for open world pvp. If people want more fair fights over mere killings, then that is what instanced pvp should provide (ignoring gear (and perhaps level?) differences since WoW may not normalize instanced pvp like FFXIV if I'm correct).

I'd agree it's acceptable; I just found it odd to put world PvP as something that'd benefit from flight (perhaps I misread your implication) when the consensus has pretty consistently tended towards the opposite -- that flight replaces World PvP with (an unnacceptably large portion of, or solely, depending on whom you ask) stalemates and griefing exchanges.

But now with warmode, they can just have it be a flightless mode if they really don't want flight being a factor in open world pvp.

Agreed. It'd also allow for the reward floor of Warmode to be higher, since the lack of flight would deserve some compensation and anyone doing Warmode already accepted the risk of not getting your PvE objectives done in the normal time via the chance of being ganked.

With FFXIV, what you suggest might be too complicated for the game to handle. And I do prefer ARR/Azys Lla style of flight unlock, but I won't complain over the game wanting to invite people to do side quests.

Oh, I'm aware. Again, it was merely a "naive pipedream" that I gave by way of example. And I fully understand why Azys Lla's unlocks were simpler than what we elsewhere. I mean, we just got a dragon mount after a decently cool cutscene. No one is going to want to then backtrack to a little gassy, green ball and palm-check it with a very concerned face for a few seconds so they can learn how to ride said dragon.

[linayar]

I would agree, though I do think it devalues topography and mob diversity, both of which are important to me until I outgear the latter into irrelevance and have gone up the same hill one too many time (YMMV).

I mentioned that position because it's one a not insignificant portion of WoW players hold and around which the devs must navigate. The devs don't care about increasing player hours played if it'd cost them subs, and the flight requirements for the new Shadowlands zones certainly already push into that territory; there would have to be, then, some other reason slightly tipping the balance, preferably beyond the persistent fallback explanation of "developers' heads stuck in their butts", especially when we see similarly pushed scales in content releases that don't typically share as many oversights or miscalculations of player wants.

Oh, I agree that there are players who like the current system. There are even players who don't want flight at all. That's why I'm not mad at the developers as they clearly have their audience. I just choose not to partake in it (or at least, partake in it in a way that would be more tolerable for me). It's also why I choose to be more conservative with regard to certain proposed changes to FFXIV because I honestly enjoy a lot of how FFXIV works compared to other MMOs I've played.

You could flight (later) in WoD. The person who gave you this information likely simply quit WoD before it was introduced, e.g., in its initial post-release drought.

I am aware of Pathfinder in WoD as I've completed it. I mean that I heard they weren't going to have flying at all originally before they changed their mind and came up with pathfinder.

I feel like that's, again, the core difference. In XIV, a zone is basically "done" when its MSQ is done. In WoW, relatively few of the hours you spend in a zone, unless you jump straight into higher-difficulty means of gear acquisition (forgoing all catch-up mechanics or the like), will equally or more come after having finished your leveling there.

And that, of course, accounts for only the leveling zones. Many zones in WoW are available only after level cap in their given expansion. (3 out of 8 zones in Legion, 2 of 8 in BfA, 2 of 7 in Shadowlands, etc.) Even if we replace "leveling" with the shorter "main story", those zones' intent still also include far more varied forms of interaction/content (to use equivalent terms -- Hunts, doing FATEs, treasure-finding, leveling zone-specific Trusts from local allies, farming glamours, becoming more powerful via zone-specific powers, building up your base, etc.).

That just makes it worse to me. You have all those reasons to be in the zone post leveling that flying would be a benefit for doing them. Instead, you're forced to be grounded while you do those contents.

Again, though, many zones have literally no attached leveling, being available only after cap, and the questline themselves are just scant introduction to the areas, not the main point of their having been developed.

There is the option to have flight per zone rather than having it be all or nothing. Even now, in Shadowlands, I believe they're doing that with Zereth Mortis. So new zones mid expansion or after level cap would not be a reason to timegate flight.

I'd agree it's acceptable; I just found it odd to put world PvP as something that'd benefit from flight (perhaps I misread your implication) when the consensus has pretty consistently tended towards the opposite -- that flight replaces World PvP with (an unnacceptably large portion of, or solely, depending on whom you ask) stalemates and griefing exchanges.

No, I'm not saying it benefits from flight, but that flight should be an acceptable risk. Just because you want to fight someone doesn't mean that they want to fight you, and flight is one way to flee or to avoid pvp. I know some people don't want flight due to pvp and that reason is what I was responding to.

Oh, I'm aware. Again, it was merely a "naive pipedream" that I gave by way of example. And I fully understand why Azys Lla's unlocks were simpler than what we elsewhere. I mean, we just got a dragon mount after a decently cool cutscene. No one is going to want to then backtrack to a little gassy, green ball and palm-check it with a very concerned face for a few seconds so they can learn how to ride said dragon.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that mount...