Final Fantasy 14 Players trying WOW?

[Shurrikhan]

I think actual progression toward full flight would be better than simply be an on-off switch with the way WoW does flight unlock, especially with the timegating.

Agreed. It's odd, then, that they decided to move from exactly that (alternate tools and supplementary systems, such as rockets, hooks, and gliders -> rentals and limited flight -> unlimited but slower fight -> unlimited and full-speed flight) to what we see now. It was from their having already had and done all that that I suggested those gradations.

I think the other problem with the way WoW unlock flight is that, from a personal point of view, the open world of WoW is not interesting (that said, no open world of any MMO I've played in recent years is interesting beyond questing for the main story, including FFXIV). And so, I spent more time in the open world to unlock flight than what I would on my own. It is essentially forced content for a quality-of-life feature for that said content. It just seems like backward design.

I'd have to greatly disagree. Not every WoW zone has incredible design, but atop what all aspects of visuals alone by which the better among WoW's zones may already rival the better among XIV's, there's far more interesting use of topography and, outside of scaled areas (or prior to their becoming entirely player-scaled), mob diversity.

In regard to taking away gameplay, I think having flight should be accepted as part of it. Being able to walk, run, mount up, or fly, to decide to engage in or avoid PVP, for instance, is part of the players' choice in how they engage in the gameplay.

I disagree, so long as the zone or world affected is threatening by ground but not by air, as is typically the case initially in new WoW zones. I'd of course prefer to see them simply add aerial threats, but such is easier said than done. (And could you imagine XIV attempting that, given that its Z axis is basically a non-factor and mobs able to hit you from some 40 yalms below?)

I'm also not sure how or why PvP would factor into it. In WoW, one simply chooses to or not to partake in world PvP. Before that was the case, moreover, flying mounts (though sometimes a boon for those disadvantaged by massively lopsided faction populations in a given zone, if there was cover enough to go unseen) were known almost solely to cheapen any form of world PvP. Since PvE objectives would require grounding, flight in the open world with PvP unlocked (as on the old PvP Servers) always carried a "third-party" or "ambusher's" advantage, since one could immediately attack from their 310% movement speed flying mount at the nearest moment of opportunity but the defender could not similarly avoid this threat without being held at a stalemate, unable to leave their mount. Given the power of movement skills and CC in the game, the existence of mere ground mounts did not necessitate the same stalemates nor advantage higher gearer, burstier players (as to make them unable to see reprisal by most classes due to how quickly they can engage, kill, and escape) in the way that flight did. Since Burning Crusade, flight has led to more kills and yet fewer actual 'fights' so to speak (a smaller portion of kills contributing to 'Honorable Kill' counts) and generated to generally lower opinion of the game's World PvP. It forgoes holding, threatening, or taking ground, navigating around one another, etc., in favor of punishing whoever first partakes in PvE elements.

In terms of taking away from the feeling of a zone, I think being "artificially" grounded for such a lengthy amount of time does take away from the immersion in a world where flight does exist.

As for feeling lonely, make more interesting contents for people to want to go down on the ground even with flight unlocked.

My apologies for reordering your comments, but I wanted to address them as coupled as my response is interlinked.

I agree that so long as flight exists, seeming to suddenly un-learn how to fly is... well, bull, unless there's an obvious difference in the environment as would affect flight.

For that reason, when I first heard that HW was to have flight I --in naive, pipedream fashion-- hoped that we'd have literal (air/aether) currents that'd supplement a stamina-based flight system. You might, for instance, take a sprinting start before diving off a cliff into a deep ravine, catching a current that passes down and through the chasm, refilling stamina even as you glide or hover (chocobos' obviously aether-assisted flapping). In such a way, topography would still be relevant and, since you'd have to figure out where these (air/aether) currents flowed and how they shifted over the course of the day or different weather patterns, there'd still be an element of progression: there'd be the real, player knowledge component and then perhaps a further, subtle artificial "attunement" bonus by which stamina costs could be decreased and max speed increased with time spent in the zone or along its currents, etc. It'd neither require suspension of disbelief as our mounts repeatedly forgets how to fly just because this zone is arid and has no river instead being arid and split by a river, etc. Instead, flight would only be as different as the zone's topography and a bit of arbitrating randomness (especially if air and aether currents aren't quite one and the same).

But alas.

But anyways, it is what it is. As it stands now, regardless of any issue people might have with FFXIV's open world, one thing I'm more than satisfied with is its flight unlock system.

Same, though locking it behind the extra few sidestory quests seems a little odd to me, even if I understand that it aids the questmakers' ability to slightly push their curation upon the players. I'd still love some actual flight physics and the aforementioned unlock system, though.

[linayar]

Quicker, not necessarily better.

The goals are alike in both cases; you can't get flight in either game until you're done with their respective zones. It's merely a difference of WoW considering the open world still a real part of the game even after you've finished the zone's main questline. After several hours of doing world content across the expansion's zones, you have your flight because that's about the point at which they determined you've experienced all even those who like open world stuff would care to experience in full and you're effectively "done" with those zones. In both cases, flight is essentially a post-content bonus, not considered a necessity for while said content is still relatively new or in play.

I do not think having flight makes the open world not a real part of the game.

As for flight being a post-content bonus, even someone who only does the MSQ in FFXIV will still go through the open world for patch MSQ content. And there are other things you can do besides the MSQ, like side quests, FATEs, hunts, guildleves, beast tribe dailies, gathering, and maps. All of those activities can benefit from having flight unlocked in all zones either by the last MSQ of the .0 patch or shortly after, depending on how focused you are at unlocking flight, for the rest of the expansion.

So, it's not a post-content bonus, but an optional post-(.0) MSQ bonus in FFXIV.

For WoW, there is also still more to do after unlocking flight, but I can also see why it can be considered a post-content bonus in terms of having to do a lot of content before unlocking flight and maybe moving on to a new zone, but that makes it less rewarding as a bonus in my opinion.

Agreed. It's odd, then, that they decided to move from exactly that (alternate tools and supplementary systems, such as rockets, hooks, and gliders -> rentals and limited flight -> unlimited but slower fight -> unlimited and full-speed flight) to what we see now. It was from their having already had and done all that that I suggested those gradations.

From what I've heard, they originally did not have flying in WoD. If true, not having more than a switch after an extensive requirement might make sense if they actually did not want flight in the game anymore.

I'd have to greatly disagree. Not every WoW zone has incredible design, but atop what all aspects of visuals alone by which the better among WoW's zones may already rival the better among XIV's, there's far more interesting use of topography and, outside of scaled areas (or prior to their becoming entirely player-scaled), mob diversity.

I don't know if we're necessarily in disagreement here, but I'm just saying that I personally need more than that to go to a zone. And WoW locks flight behind all of the reasons that I would go to the zones.

Interesting use of topography and mob diversity can be shown off during the leveling process of questing. And once you've unlocked flight, mob diversity can still be appreciated by having appropriate quests while topography can be appreciated on a grander scale from above.

I disagree, so long as the zone or world affected is threatening by ground but not by air, as is typically the case initially in new WoW zones. I'd of course prefer to see them simply add aerial threats, but such is easier said than done. (And could you imagine XIV attempting that, given that its Z axis is basically a non-factor and mobs able to hit you from some 40 yalms below?)

Outside of having aerial threats, I think being grounded during leveling is more than enough to show off the threats in the ground. Any further threats can be focused on the nature of the quests themselves as you'll still go down to do the questing. And with WoW being more willing to just have you go on a quest to kill various enemies on the ground, having flight doesn't remove those threats as you still need to engage with them to complete your quests.

I'm also not sure how or why PvP would factor into it. In WoW, one simply chooses to or not to partake in world PvP. Before that was the case, moreover, flying mounts (though sometimes a boon for those disadvantaged by massively lopsided faction populations in a given zone, if there was cover enough to go unseen) were known almost solely to cheapen any form of world PvP. Since PvE objectives would require grounding, flight in the open world with PvP unlocked (as on the old PvP Servers) always carried a "third-party" or "ambusher's" advantage, since one could immediately attack from their 310% movement speed flying mount at the nearest moment of opportunity but the defender could not similarly avoid this threat without being held at a stalemate, unable to leave their mount. Given the power of movement skills and CC in the game, the existence of mere ground mounts did not necessitate the same stalemates nor advantage higher gearer, burstier players (as to make them unable to see reprisal by most classes due to how quickly they can engage, kill, and escape) in the way that flight did. Since Burning Crusade, flight has led to more kills and yet fewer actual 'fights' so to speak (a smaller portion of kills contributing to 'Honorable Kill' counts) and generated to generally lower opinion of the game's World PvP. It forgoes holding, threatening, or taking ground, navigating around one another, etc., in favor of punishing whoever first partakes in PvE elements.

I think that's an acceptable risk for open world pvp. If people want more fair fights over mere killings, then that is what instanced pvp should provide (ignoring gear (and perhaps level?) differences since WoW may not normalize instanced pvp like FFXIV if I'm correct).

But now with warmode, they can just have it be a flightless mode if they really don't want flight being a factor in open world pvp.

My apologies for reordering your comments, but I wanted to address them as coupled as my response is interlinked.

I agree that so long as flight exists, seeming to suddenly un-learn how to fly is... well, bull, unless there's an obvious difference in the environment as would affect flight.

For that reason, when I first heard that HW was to have flight I --in naive, pipedream fashion-- hoped that we'd have literal (air/aether) currents that'd supplement a stamina-based flight system. You might, for instance, take a sprinting start before diving off a cliff into a deep ravine, catching a current that passes down and through the chasm, refilling stamina even as you glide or hover (chocobos' obviously aether-assisted flapping). In such a way, topography would still be relevant and, since you'd have to figure out where these (air/aether) currents flowed and how they shifted over the course of the day or different weather patterns, there'd still be an element of progression: there'd be the real, player knowledge component and then perhaps a further, subtle artificial "attunement" bonus by which stamina costs could be decreased and max speed increased with time spent in the zone or along its currents, etc. It'd neither require suspension of disbelief as our mounts repeatedly forgets how to fly just because this zone is arid and has no river instead being arid and split by a river, etc. Instead, flight would only be as different as the zone's topography and a bit of arbitrating randomness (especially if air and aether currents aren't quite one and the same).

But alas.


Same, though locking it behind the extra few sidestory quests seems a little odd to me, even if I understand that it aids the questmakers' ability to slightly push their curation upon the players. I'd still love some actual flight physics and the aforementioned unlock system, though.

With FFXIV, what you suggest might be too complicated for the game to handle. And I do prefer ARR/Azys Lla style of flight unlock, but I won't complain over the game wanting to invite people to do side quests.

[Shurrikhan]

I do not think having flight makes the open world not a real part of the game.

I would agree, though I do think it devalues topography and mob diversity, both of which are important to me until I outgear the latter into irrelevance and have gone up the same hill one too many time (YMMV).

I mentioned that position because it's one a not insignificant portion of WoW players hold and around which the devs must navigate. The devs don't care about increasing player hours played if it'd cost them subs, and the flight requirements for the new Shadowlands zones certainly already push into that territory; there would have to be, then, some other reason slightly tipping the balance, preferably beyond the persistent fallback explanation of "developers' heads stuck in their butts", especially when we see similarly pushed scales in content releases that don't typically share as many oversights or miscalculations of player wants.

From what I've heard, they originally did not have flying in WoD.

You could flight (later) in WoD. The person who gave you this information likely simply quit WoD before it was introduced, e.g., in its initial post-release drought.

I don't know if we're necessarily in disagreement here, but I'm just saying that I personally need more than that to go to a zone. And WoW locks flight behind all of the reasons that I would go to the zones.

I feel like that's, again, the core difference. In XIV, a zone is basically "done" when its MSQ is done. In WoW, relatively few of the hours you spend in a zone, unless you jump straight into higher-difficulty means of gear acquisition (forgoing all catch-up mechanics or the like), will equally or more come after having finished your leveling there.

And that, of course, accounts for only the leveling zones. Many zones in WoW are available only after level cap in their given expansion. (3 out of 8 zones in Legion, 2 of 8 in BfA, 2 of 7 in Shadowlands, etc.) Even if we replace "leveling" with the shorter "main story", those zones' intent still also include far more varied forms of interaction/content (to use equivalent terms -- Hunts, doing FATEs, treasure-finding, leveling zone-specific Trusts from local allies, farming glamours, becoming more powerful via zone-specific powers, building up your base, etc.).

Outside of having aerial threats, I think being grounded during leveling is more than enough to show off the threats in the ground. Any further threats can be focused on the nature of the quests themselves as you'll still go down to do the questing.

Again, though, many zones have literally no attached leveling, being available only after cap, and the questline themselves are just scant introduction to the areas, not the main point of their having been developed.

I think that's an acceptable risk for open world pvp. If people want more fair fights over mere killings, then that is what instanced pvp should provide (ignoring gear (and perhaps level?) differences since WoW may not normalize instanced pvp like FFXIV if I'm correct).

I'd agree it's acceptable; I just found it odd to put world PvP as something that'd benefit from flight (perhaps I misread your implication) when the consensus has pretty consistently tended towards the opposite -- that flight replaces World PvP with (an unnacceptably large portion of, or solely, depending on whom you ask) stalemates and griefing exchanges.

But now with warmode, they can just have it be a flightless mode if they really don't want flight being a factor in open world pvp.

Agreed. It'd also allow for the reward floor of Warmode to be higher, since the lack of flight would deserve some compensation and anyone doing Warmode already accepted the risk of not getting your PvE objectives done in the normal time via the chance of being ganked.

With FFXIV, what you suggest might be too complicated for the game to handle. And I do prefer ARR/Azys Lla style of flight unlock, but I won't complain over the game wanting to invite people to do side quests.

Oh, I'm aware. Again, it was merely a "naive pipedream" that I gave by way of example. And I fully understand why Azys Lla's unlocks were simpler than what we elsewhere. I mean, we just got a dragon mount after a decently cool cutscene. No one is going to want to then backtrack to a little gassy, green ball and palm-check it with a very concerned face for a few seconds so they can learn how to ride said dragon.

[linayar]

I would agree, though I do think it devalues topography and mob diversity, both of which are important to me until I outgear the latter into irrelevance and have gone up the same hill one too many time (YMMV).

I mentioned that position because it's one a not insignificant portion of WoW players hold and around which the devs must navigate. The devs don't care about increasing player hours played if it'd cost them subs, and the flight requirements for the new Shadowlands zones certainly already push into that territory; there would have to be, then, some other reason slightly tipping the balance, preferably beyond the persistent fallback explanation of "developers' heads stuck in their butts", especially when we see similarly pushed scales in content releases that don't typically share as many oversights or miscalculations of player wants.

Oh, I agree that there are players who like the current system. There are even players who don't want flight at all. That's why I'm not mad at the developers as they clearly have their audience. I just choose not to partake in it (or at least, partake in it in a way that would be more tolerable for me). It's also why I choose to be more conservative with regard to certain proposed changes to FFXIV because I honestly enjoy a lot of how FFXIV works compared to other MMOs I've played.

You could flight (later) in WoD. The person who gave you this information likely simply quit WoD before it was introduced, e.g., in its initial post-release drought.

I am aware of Pathfinder in WoD as I've completed it. I mean that I heard they weren't going to have flying at all originally before they changed their mind and came up with pathfinder.

I feel like that's, again, the core difference. In XIV, a zone is basically "done" when its MSQ is done. In WoW, relatively few of the hours you spend in a zone, unless you jump straight into higher-difficulty means of gear acquisition (forgoing all catch-up mechanics or the like), will equally or more come after having finished your leveling there.

And that, of course, accounts for only the leveling zones. Many zones in WoW are available only after level cap in their given expansion. (3 out of 8 zones in Legion, 2 of 8 in BfA, 2 of 7 in Shadowlands, etc.) Even if we replace "leveling" with the shorter "main story", those zones' intent still also include far more varied forms of interaction/content (to use equivalent terms -- Hunts, doing FATEs, treasure-finding, leveling zone-specific Trusts from local allies, farming glamours, becoming more powerful via zone-specific powers, building up your base, etc.).

That just makes it worse to me. You have all those reasons to be in the zone post leveling that flying would be a benefit for doing them. Instead, you're forced to be grounded while you do those contents.

Again, though, many zones have literally no attached leveling, being available only after cap, and the questline themselves are just scant introduction to the areas, not the main point of their having been developed.

There is the option to have flight per zone rather than having it be all or nothing. Even now, in Shadowlands, I believe they're doing that with Zereth Mortis. So new zones mid expansion or after level cap would not be a reason to timegate flight.

I'd agree it's acceptable; I just found it odd to put world PvP as something that'd benefit from flight (perhaps I misread your implication) when the consensus has pretty consistently tended towards the opposite -- that flight replaces World PvP with (an unnacceptably large portion of, or solely, depending on whom you ask) stalemates and griefing exchanges.

No, I'm not saying it benefits from flight, but that flight should be an acceptable risk. Just because you want to fight someone doesn't mean that they want to fight you, and flight is one way to flee or to avoid pvp. I know some people don't want flight due to pvp and that reason is what I was responding to.

Oh, I'm aware. Again, it was merely a "naive pipedream" that I gave by way of example. And I fully understand why Azys Lla's unlocks were simpler than what we elsewhere. I mean, we just got a dragon mount after a decently cool cutscene. No one is going to want to then backtrack to a little gassy, green ball and palm-check it with a very concerned face for a few seconds so they can learn how to ride said dragon.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that mount...

[Shurrikhan]

There is the option to have flight per zone rather than having it be all or nothing.

Until Mechagon, in BfA, WoW flight had already been basically per-zone, though zones in WoW do work differently from here as entire continents fall into a single instance, rather than each having loading screens between.

(This gives only the exception of Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms, which require a loading screen to move between, being considered a single zone in terms of flight unlocks, as they both follow the same level span, and, later, flight becoming standardized in all expansions beyond the penultimate, such that Outland, Northrend, Cataclysm, Pandaria, Draenor, or the Broken Isles once they were likewise put into the same level span by way of the "Choose your expansion(s) to level via" feature.)

This still mostly applies to anything since, as well. The Maw is a separate zone from the rest of the Shadowlands*, as is Zereth Mortis. Korthia is the only other odd exception, as it was part of the Maw's larger instance. (*Players managed to use a bugged World Quest/FATE to fly the gap between Shadowlands areas directly even before flight--i.e., without using Flight Paths and its possibly disguised loading screen in going into and from Oribos. Though hugely spit apart, they are all part of the same larger instance map.)

That just makes it worse to me. You have all those reasons to be in the zone post leveling that flying would be a benefit for doing them. Instead, you're forced to be grounded while you do those contents.

And getting better (i.e., above the latest crafted tier) gear earlier would be a benefit in current raids, which would at the time have all the reason to do; instead, we're held back by weekly caps while we do that content.

I don't say that to wave a red herring; I don't think it is one. Rather, your argument could make the case for further gradations in flight capacity beyond being unlocked merely per-zone, but it only it makes clearer why, while that content is still relevant, not every means of accelerating it isn't yet given.

No, I'm not saying it benefits from flight, but that flight should be an acceptable risk. Just because you want to fight someone doesn't mean that they want to fight you, and flight is one way to flee or to avoid pvp. I know some people don't want flight due to pvp and that reason is what I was responding to.

Right, but again --and this is due more to mount speed than whether it can fly (though a flying mount moving only at ground mount speed would rapidly piss of players, so the two matters do quickly becomes intwined)-- because the mount speed is so high, it tends to increase the relative penalty of reaction times and nullify the space made by active evasive movement (teleporting away, etc., since, at some 4x movement speed, they only need to move for a further second to again reach you anyways). Evasion becomes harder, not easier, by way of flying mounts, so long as you have prior need to dismount (i.e., to actually do something other than ganking players).

I am aware of Pathfinder in WoD as I've completed it. I mean that I heard they weren't going to have flying at all originally before they changed their mind and came up with pathfinder.

Ahh, gotcha.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that mount...

And I've not used it since, but I do remember getting it being cool at the time?

[linayar]

Until Mechagon, in BfA, WoW flight had already been basically per-zone, though zones in WoW do work differently from here as entire continents fall into a single instance, rather than each having loading screens between.

(This gives only the exception of Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms, which require a loading screen to move between, being considered a single zone in terms of flight unlocks, as they both follow the same level span, and, later, flight becoming standardized in all expansions beyond the penultimate, such that Outland, Northrend, Cataclysm, Pandaria, Draenor, or the Broken Isles once they were likewise put into the same level span by way of the "Choose your expansion(s) to level via" feature.)

This still mostly applies to anything since, as well. The Maw is a separate zone from the rest of the Shadowlands*, as is Zereth Mortis. Korthia is the only other odd exception, as it was part of the Maw's larger instance. (*Players managed to use a bugged World Quest/FATE to fly the gap between Shadowlands areas directly even before flight--i.e., without using Flight Paths and its possibly disguised loading screen in going into and from Oribos. Though hugely spit apart, they are all part of the same larger instance map.)

By zone, I mean the default area covered by your map (without zooming out). I don't know what it's like pre-pathfinder, but pathfinder definitely does not unlock flight "per zone" by how I defined a zone to be until Zereth Mortis in Shadowlands. (And I'm not counting zones like the Maw or Argus in Legion where you can't unlock flight anyway.)

And getting better (i.e., above the latest crafted tier) gear earlier would be a benefit in current raids, which would at the time have all the reason to do; instead, we're held back by weekly caps while we do that content.

I don't say that to wave a red herring; I don't think it is one. Rather, your argument could make the case for further gradations in flight capacity beyond being unlocked merely per-zone, but it only it makes clearer why, while that content is still relevant, not every means of accelerating it isn't yet given.

Gearing is time gated because gearing (or power progression in general) is the main mechanism of combat. It is how you control the difficulty of content, whether you can clear a content and how easily.

Flight does not do so for most of the content that you do in the open world (at least, from what I've experienced from WoD through BfA zone). It is a transportation mechanism to get you to the content that you do.

The equivalent of withholding flight is not time gating gearing, but time gating access to cross server raid or access to some kind of dungeon finder or pre-made group finder. They don't affect the difficulty of content, just accessibility in getting to the content.

Right, but again --and this is due more to mount speed than whether it can fly (though a flying mount moving only at ground mount speed would rapidly piss of players, so the two matters do quickly becomes intwined)-- because the mount speed is so high, it tends to increase the relative penalty of reaction times and nullify the space made by active evasive movement (teleporting away, etc., since, at some 4x movement speed, they only need to move for a further second to again reach you anyways). Evasion becomes harder, not easier, by way of flying mounts, so long as you have prior need to dismount (i.e., to actually do something other than ganking players).

I'll take your word it, but I think you get my point.

[Shurrikhan]

By zone, I mean the default area covered by your map (without zooming out).

Again, that's now how WoW works, though, especially in a post-level-scaling environment. Every "zone" in XIV sense can be moved between every which way, without loading screens; the instances are content-sized. It'd make little sense to be able to fly in one zone, cross one inch too far along an invisible, seamless border, and instantly drop to one's death. Even if there were a safety period and the like, why would flying in the cold, gusty skies of one zone be different from the cold, gusty skies of its neighbor, etc.? If you unlocked flight in the Broken Isles, it applied to all the broken isles. If you unlocked flight in Outland or Draenor or Northrend, that capacity wouldn't be split by sub-zone, because neither are those instances (any more than flying over a small hub suddenly changes you to a new "zone" just because it's a named space).

Flight does not do so for most of the content that you do in the open world (at least, from what I've experienced from WoD through BfA zone).

When you can do said content even at minimum ilvl, gear beyond that point, just like speed and the ability to avoid dangers beyond what is necessary to reach all necessary parts of a map, is mere facilitator/accelerator. Does the ability to nullify dangers, including barely-avoidable rares and the like who could one-shot you vs. being one-shot by avoidable raid mechanics, matter for one but not the other? That seems inconsistent.

The equivalent of withholding flight is not time gating gearing, but time gating access to cross server raid or access to some kind of dungeon finder or pre-made group finder.

I have to disagree; the closest parallel clearly seems to be overgearing / gearing beyond what is absolutely necessary, as would nullify certain dangers and make the process on the whole quicker.

I'll take your word it, but I think you get my point.

Depends. Is your point that "the world PvP environment caused my mounts, typically considered worse for world PvP's enjoyability, is an added risk that WoW players chose when playing on a PvP server (formerly) or on Warmode (now), knowing that flight would eventually be unlocked anyways"?