So you're telling me..

[Akiudo]

If the SAM or the BLM contributes slightly more rDPS (read: enough to cover the gap a multiplicative raidbuff would give instead) then any job is competitive.

but if they provide more rdps at the top than the buff classes than they aren't "covering the gap" but instead actively exceeding the maximum potential even after multiplicative buffs, otherwise the top groups would still ditch samurai and go for the buff classes.

you are literally saying that its not just okay but necessary for a samurai to deal say 1% more than a "buff class" at the absolute top because no one would take a samurai over a "buff class" if these same buff class provided 1% more dps at the absolute top compared to samurai, by that logic no one would take any "buff" class over samurai aswell.

there will ALLWAYS be a best class, its literally 100% impossible to make every class equal. not even "equal" chess pieces truly hold equal value but are actually more/less valuable in different stages of the game.

all you're asking for is making Samurai every bit as mandatory as you claim say monk to be.

[tearagion]

but if they provide more rdps at the top than the buff classes than they aren't "covering the gap" but instead actively exceeding the maximum potential even after multiplicative buffs, otherwise the top groups would still ditch samurai and go for the buff classes.

you are literally saying that its not just okay but necessary for a samurai to deal say 1% more than a "buff class" at the absolute top because no one would take a samurai over a "buff class" if these same buff class provided 1% more dps at the absolute top compared to samurai, by that logic no one would take any "buff" class over samurai aswell.

there will ALLWAYS be a best class, its literally 100% impossible to make every class equal. not even "equal" chess pieces truly hold equal value but are actually more/less valuable in different stages of the game.

all you're asking for is making Samurai every bit as mandatory as you claim say monk to be.

What I'm saying is that for a selfish DPS class to be pragmatically competitive with the datasets we get it needs to be marginally ahead in average rDPS. Without a lead it's probably (read: given the nature of higher coordination required for buff classes and the fact that parses in general do not utilize these timings well) not good enough at accomplishing its only job. There are only 3 of these selfish DPS jobs in the game they will never be able to crowd out other options just by virtue of there not being enough of them, let alone it being inefficient to start taking more than one if properly balanced.

I'm not saying anything is mandatory. Balance as it is right now is perfectly fine for 99.9% of players. Every job is capable of comfortably completing all content in almost any combination. People just seem to have a misconception about what rDPS indicates as a statistic and what that means for classes who don't positively contribute to rDPS.

[Ransu]

but if they provide more rdps at the top than the buff classes than they aren't "covering the gap" but instead actively exceeding the maximum potential even after multiplicative buffs, otherwise the top groups would still ditch samurai and go for the buff classes.

you are literally saying that its not just okay but necessary for a samurai to deal say 1% more than a "buff class" at the absolute top because no one would take a samurai over a "buff class" if these same buff class provided 1% more dps at the absolute top compared to samurai, by that logic no one would take any "buff" class over samurai aswell.

there will ALLWAYS be a best class, its literally 100% impossible to make every class equal. not even "equal" chess pieces truly hold equal value but are actually more/less valuable in different stages of the game.

all you're asking for is making Samurai every bit as mandatory as you claim say monk to be.

The whole point of sam needing to have top rdps and adps is to make up for the fact the raid doesn't get any buffs from them....rdps is contribution to the raid, not just personal buffs.

[Akiudo]

What I'm saying is that for a selfish DPS class to be pragmatically competitive with the datasets we get it needs to be marginally ahead in average rDPS. Without a lead it's probably (read: given the nature of higher coordination required for buff classes and the fact that parses in general do not utilize these timings well) not good enough at accomplishing its only job.

and if samurai is top until 90-95% than it is "ahead in average dps" the original argument was that samurai needs to be ahead when we look at the top, you can't only look at the top 1% and than talk about averages.

The whole point of sam needing to have top rdps and adps is to make up for the fact the raid doesn't get any buffs from them....rdps is contribution to the raid, not just personal buffs.

but what buffs are we talking here ?

utility buffs ? in that case i allready said they should be accounted for (meaning less damage the more actual utility you offer) , i.e. the argument was never against samurai being above reaper (as reaper offers a group heal that samurai does not) but against the notion that it needs to do more because other classes have damage buffs.

or are we talking damage buffs ? in that case "perfect balance" would mean that every class has the exact same rpds at every percentile (obviously not realistic) so the next best thing would be "highest rdps class depends on circumstances/level of play and not "samurai is allways top" which is what you get if you let samurai have the highest rdps when at the actual top because the drop off off buff classes is comperatively steep.

[tearagion]

and if samurai is top until 90-95% than it is "ahead in average dps" the original argument was that samurai needs to be ahead when we look at the top, you can't only look at the top 1% and than talk about averages.

What are you talking about? Buff classes scale more with player skill, assuming the only variable is cooperation (something that deteriorates usually the lower you go) SAM and BLM should be comparatively better the lower you go.

[Akiudo]

What are you talking about? Buff classes scale more with player skill, assuming the only variable is cooperation (something that deteriorates usually the lower you go) SAM and BLM should be comparatively better the lower you go.

exactly, better the lower you go, meaning not best at the absolute top otherwise they will allways be best at every level. that was my whole argument from the very beginning.

[tearagion]

exactly, better the lower you go, meaning not at the top at the absolute top otherwise they will allways be at the top at every level. that was my whole argument from the very beginning.

The 'absolute top' can never be reliably measured, so SAM MCH and BLM should be marginally higher in rDPS

[Akiudo]

The 'absolute top' can never be reliably measured, so SAM MCH and BLM should be marginally higher in rDPS

so your solution to them potentially never being at the top at say the 98%+ level is to simply turn them into the class that is literally allways the strongest and than call that balance ?