Tank healing is to high

[Shurrikhan]

Should it be taken into consideration that as the most needed/least played role in the game, it would only make sense and be fair to also make tanks the most well-rounded? Even bordering OP?

That would assume that (1) people prefer being OP over being rewarded for their skill and (2) somehow that reducing tank mechanics to actually do and be rewarded for doing well while increasing tank capacity, for a third expansion in a row, would somehow suddenly have the opposite effect from the prior two expansions.

"Yes, let's give them less to do, making it so any skilled player really should switch to DPS for any significant carry potential since a monkey could have nearly their impact, and just buff the hell out of their role to compensate" has become the classical solution, though, yes. (For all the good it's done to help our number of tanks or, along a similar trajectory of change, healers.)

[Absimiliard]

That would assume that (1) people prefer being OP over being rewarded for their skill

A not insignificant number of people want this very thing, failing to realize that it's ultimately going to result in them burning out and either leaving or swapping to DPS anyway.

Granted, I myself do enjoy not being beholden to healers in dungeons. I think it's a good change, but that level of survivability should not simply be handed to you. You should be have to earn it.

[Gemina]

Granted, I myself do enjoy not being beholden to healers in dungeons. I think it's a good change, but that level of survivability should not simply be handed to you. You should be have to earn it.

I wouldn't say it's just given to you. Particularly for WAR and PLD since they start @30 and after leveling MRD and GLD respectively. The abilities tanks get and their enhancements are gained through leveling, which for the sake of argument has to be done in PvE content. However, even if you did just give it to someone new, that sustainability is going to be a lot to ask for, and a healer will very much have to still keep a watchful eye on that tank as the sequence of skills a tank uses during pulls can be derped, and lower their ability to survive the pull. Optimizing your toolkit to survive longer will only come with experience, and nothing less.

I am not a tank main, but I do enjoy playing it in most content, so take it from me when I say there is so much that goes into what you guys do.

[Gemina]

That would assume that (1) people prefer being OP over being rewarded for their skill and (2) somehow that reducing tank mechanics to actually do and be rewarded for doing well while increasing tank capacity, for a third expansion in a row, would somehow suddenly have the opposite effect from the prior two expansions.

"Yes, let's give them less to do, making it so any skilled player really should switch to DPS for any significant carry potential since a monkey could have nearly their impact, and just buff the hell out of their role to compensate" has become the classical solution, though, yes. (For all the good it's done to help our number of tanks or, along a similar trajectory of change, healers.)

I don't think it has to be assumed that some players will take being OP over needing to be skilled seven days a week. Observation will tell you that. Observation will also point out that despite the [subjective] ease of play, and power tanks have, along with the high rewards it gets through roulettes, mounts, and short queue privilege; it is still the least played role in the game; so clearly there is something else about it that deters more players from taking the role.

Tanking in this game, despite all the changes, always has and always will be PvE from the other side of the field. When you view 3 to 23 other players literally responding to what you're doing with the boss, it can be like looking over the edge of a high cliff. This won't be much of an issue for tank mains, and a lot of what is viewed as ease of play can be tied to the amount of experience they have in the role.

If the definition of being OP in FFXIV is having a surplus of what is required to perform your role, then healers also fall under that category. The more experienced ones also talk about having less to do, so it would seem to me that ease of play is also a circumstance of being OP. Which points me back to my initial statement in this post. Requiring for these roles to have more skill to execute their duties makes the game more difficult to play, basically for everyone as less tanks and healers in the queues means more wait times for those who want to play DPS jobs.

The solution might not be one everyone agrees with, but it is a solution all the same. It might have even worked too well and to the point of being a detriment to players as queue times to get in still average around an hour opposed to a few minutes before the expansion launch.

[Shurrikhan]

This won't be much of an issue for tank mains

And that's the problem. Dumbing down a role to where there is now little performance gap to maining it will ultimately lead to fewer people maining it once the honeymoon period is over.

If the definition of being OP in FFXIV is having a surplus of what is required to perform your role, then healers also fall under that category.

No, I simply compared its combined passive mitigation, active mitigation, healing, and damage against previous expansions. If those were each balanced, then to now have an extra third the healing and mitigation (and double the passive miti compared to StB) and an extra quarter the damage would be, yes, likely overpowered.

That tanks have heals is fine. That tanks have ally-targetable heals is fine. That tanks have 30 to 70% the healing of a healer atop so much passive mitigation atop more damage than healers that spend not a single offensive GCD... is not. There was no need to just throw added capacity at tanks, all while reducing the skill required to optimize it, and there was every need to give tank mains more mechanics and some decent ceiling height to play with and towards.

[Gemina]

And that's the problem. Dumbing down a role to where there is now little performance gap to maining it will ultimately lead to fewer people maining it once the honeymoon period is over.

I can only go by own experience, and there are a lot of factors at play; but I spend considerably less time in any queue as a DPS now than ever. Does this mean there are more tanks and healers in the queue? Is it still too early in this expansion to conclude anything? Does using the term "honeymoon" mean that this person is just bitter, or are they the foreshadowing type? That being said, my only argument to this is, "How can you be so sure?" On my observational end it is all evidence to the contrary.

No, I simply compared its combined passive mitigation, active mitigation, healing, and damage against previous expansions. If those were each balanced, then to now have an extra third the healing and mitigation (and double the passive miti compared to StB) and an extra quarter the damage would be, yes, likely overpowered.

Why do you say no, and then go on to elaborate that you agree with me. Do you just not want to agree with me?

That tanks have heals is fine. That tanks have ally-targetable heals is fine. That tanks have 30 to 70% the healing of a healer atop so much passive mitigation atop more damage than healers that spend not a single offensive GCD... is not. There was no need to just throw added capacity at tanks, all while reducing the skill required to optimize it, and there was every need to give tank mains more mechanics and some decent ceiling height to play with and towards.

I am not so sure. Again, I only going off my own experience, but have been playing the game for some time in all three roles. During that time, the role that has been shown to not be able to perform the very basic principle; the bare minimum their role requires, are healers. Like unquestionably so, and this also comes from a healer main. You feel there was not a need to give this kind of sustainability to tanks. I strongly beg to differ.

Somehow, healers still tunnel vision despite their DPS rotation being reduced to one button. The devs have stripped them down to the bare minimum offensively, and it was STILL happening in ShB. They also mentioned [warned] that healers were too focused in on damage. The way I see it is they had no choice but to give tanks this kind of sustainability since they can't just take way a healer's ability to do damage completely. Hopefully you can see where I am going with this.

[Shurrikhan]

Why do you say no, and then go on to elaborate that you agree with me. Do you just not want to agree with me?

I didn't agree with you, though? Your implicit claim:

the definition of being OP in FFXIV is having a surplus of what is required to perform your role

Mine: "A job's power can be considered to have been excessively increased if its capacities were significantly buffed (such as tanks' extra one-quarter to one-third buff in each category of throughput going into EW) despite no increased need for those capacities (e.g., no relative increase in tank damage to be taken)." It doesn't much matter which role the capacity might classically be defined as; staying alive can be a result of self-healing as much as mitigation except in that only the latter increases maximum eHP against a single blow. The issue is simply when one role has, say, three times the combined outputs of any other and only a small part of its short-term throughputs are required for its place in content. If a tank can heal others without any in-practice cost to keeping itself alive, all while not having enough of a DPS decrease to risk enrage from role choice alone, that's generally excessive capacity ("overpowered").
________________

On my observational end it is all evidence to the contrary.
...
Again, I only going off my own experience, but...

I'm also not sure why you're trying to reduce any larger sample sizes worth of data via (or, as if it were impossible for them to hold any more water than) small-scale anecdotes like

I spend considerably less time in any queue as a DPS now than ever.

[Satarn]

Observation will also point out that despite the [subjective] ease of play, and power tanks have, along with the high rewards it gets through roulettes, mounts, and short queue privilege; it is still the least played role in the game; so clearly there is something else about it that deters more players from taking the role.

Crazy idea here maybe, but hear me out: if making tanks easier to play and more op hasn't noticeably increased the amount of tanks, then perhaps - no, really, stay with me - perhaps making tanks easier to play and more op is not an effective solution to increasing the amount of tanks.

Like, you were so close for a moment here honestly, but yeah, sure, we should just stick to and double down on that course of action which has so far shown no significant success.

Hey, what was the definition of insanity again?

[Gemina]

Crazy idea here maybe, but hear me out: if making tanks easier to play and more op hasn't noticeably increased the amount of tanks, then perhaps - no, really, stay with me - perhaps making tanks easier to play and more op is not an effective solution to increasing the amount of tanks.

Like, you were so close for a moment here honestly, but yeah, sure, we should just stick to and double down on that course of action which has so far shown no significant success.

Hey, what was the definition of insanity again?

What do you mean no success? FFXIV is currently the most successful mmo on the market; or it was anyway until sales and marketing of it had to be postponed to deal with the congestion issue. Perhaps you have a different definition of success?

I'm not here to argue. I'm just pointing out some things that attribute to the current state of the game. I see it as a matter of not being able to make everyone happy, but the success of the game ultimately does serve everyone who desires to play it. As far as tanks go, I can only make observational and educated guesses as to why it is the least played role. That's why I didn't specify what it was, and simply stated that there is something that deters players from taking it on despite that "any monkey" can do it.

Furthermore, I try to give credit where credit is due, and attempt to point out that there is more to tanking than just its skillset. I try to attest to to this by pointing out my own difficulty and flaws with playing the role. Does this make me less capable of picking up tanking than a monkey? I hope not. Certainly doesn't encourage me to continue tanking, yet, you will put it on the devs and their decisions as the reason for this?

[Satarn]

What do you mean no success? FFXIV is currently the most successful mmo on the market; or it was anyway until sales and marketing of it had to be postponed to deal with the congestion issue. Perhaps you have a different definition of success?

Holy cow, this is the most intellectually dishonest argument I have seen in a good while, lol. It's like you've rolled a correlation fallacy, straw manning and goal post moving into one neat package.

The game is obviously largely successful right now, I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with that. But this isn't about the game's popularity - it's about the tank role's popularity.

The fact, which even you have yourself noted, is that despite all the efforts to make tanks easier to play and more powerful, they have seen no significant (and lasting) population increase. Ergo - this course of action has proven itself to be ineffective at its goal - which is to make the tank role more played.

The game as a whole gaining in popularity is irrelevant, because given the above mentioned fact, it's far more logical to conclude that this is thanks to making other aspects of the game appealing to players. Also, like, XIV's only real competition kinda nuked itself in the eyes of many mmo players, so that might also be a factor. The game might very well (and I believe it is) be successful not thanks to, but in spite of failing to make tanks(and healers honestly) attractive choices.

Next you'll be saying that XIV's popularity boom during Shadowbringers is evidence that the game's PVP was fantastic and beloved by all.