New patch and still no positionals back on MNK!

[Shurrikhan]

Did people think positionals were fun complex gameplay or something?

Complex? No. Fun? Yes. "Something"? Also yes. They were a good half of our downtime complexity.

[IdowhatIwant]

Complex? No. Fun? Yes. "Something"? Also yes. They were a good half of our downtime complexity.

Beg to differ I think positionals being fun is a matter of opinion.

[Shurrikhan]

Did people think

Beg to differ I think positionals being fun is a matter of opinion.

My bad. I forgot that other "people" can't have opinions, let alone compose a majority therein.

[VentVanitas]

Beg to differ I think positionals being fun is a matter of opinion.

And that's why having just one out of the four (at the time) jobs with a focus on them was fine, and why there's a vocal group that wants them back on Monk.

[Ramura_Sono]

Beg to differ I think positionals being fun is a matter of opinion.

Anything people find fun or unfun is nothing but a matter of opinion.

Positionals being unfun is also a matter of opinion. There were also 3 other melee with a considerably lower emphasis on positionals for those that found them unfun. Monk was quite literally the only Job for those who enjoyed a heavy emphasis on positional based gameplay. Their removal did little if anything to boost MNK's player numbers.

Positionals add more complexity to any rotation. If you take two identical rotations, have one with positional requirements and one without, the one with added positional requirements will objectively be harder and more complex.

[Mikey_R]

You know the vast periods of downtime you have between Blitz Phases? That is boring as it currently stands. You can literally stand on the opponent's flank for the vast majority of your rotation and you just go through your GCD rotation. You might have TFC randomly come up, but you also might not. Positionals are an easy way to keep you busy during that time. They are also not as punishing as people kept making out either, as an example, you do 3 GCDs, Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes, Snap Punch), all from the flank, but the boss moves at the last hit, so you miss the last one. Currently, you would lose 60 potency for missing it. If that 60 potency was spread over the 3 GCDs, you only lose 20 potency and Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes is not an uncommon combo to have.

I could make a claim that, on average, I suspect you lose less overall potency for having positionals on everything than having positionals on just the 2 GCDs, or at the very least, they are even. There is zero chance that you lose less potency by having just the 2 positional attacks than having them on everything.

[Bhearil]

Guys dont make like it like having all positionals back would magically fix the mess that Monk right now it is. Plus having so many positionals made open world solo questing a real pain because having a permadebuff on damage unless you used True North/stuns wasnt fun(on ARR was over 60 potency lost PER weaponskill). Theres also a reason why some bosses didnt have positionals due them being to heavy on movement and would have given the middle finger to melees and specially monk but at the same time those boss made positionals completely worthless.

Too many positionals affect balance of fights since they have to think on the job that has most positionals and adjust from there, sometimes dumbifying other jobs positionals by making the boss positional free because they didnt want another turret boss

The big elephant for monk is that their gameplay feels like crap. Fixing that is far more important than having extra positionals that in the end are basically muscle memory and condition devs while making content (you wanna see more "ignore positional" bosses?)

[Mikey_R]

But positional were a part of Monk's gameplay. Monk was relatively simple to play, which meant you could dedicate some brain power to hitting those positionals, which wasn't always easy.

You can hit a dummy no issues, most dungeon bosses are easy to hit, but has anyone who said positionals are boring/busy work actually played Monk in an extreme or savage raid? Hitting those positionals around mechanics is what stops them being braindead, you have to anticipate what the boss and the rest of your team is going to do so that you both hit that positional and not screw the team up.

Also, to have to use overworld mobs to make the claim positionals were bad just shows a lack of understanding. Overworld mobs are weak and you aren't required to hit positionals, however, you still could with True North, RoE, Leg Sweep and just generally moving quick, so, you can still hit them if you want to. You also had to go back as far ad ARR and the 60 potency loss when ShB was down to 20 potency with Bootshine being a bit higher due to crit + TFC potency added on.

It has been said, positionals do not even matter for dungeons or even trials/normal raids. There is no enrage to clear (for the most part) so losing out on 20 potency here and there is not a big deal and that is the point. The positionals were not much of a gain DPS wise, however, it was enough to show the difference between a good Monk and a great Monk. That Monk who is just playing it for fun Vs. the Monk who plays it a bit more seriously. If you never played Monk to the point where you were trying to hit every positional and manoeuvring around mechanics to achieve that goal, you will probably never understand why more serious Monk players enjoyed it as much as we did.

[Bhearil]

But positional were a part of Monk's gameplay. Monk was relatively simple to play, which meant you could dedicate some brain power to hitting those positionals, which wasn't always easy.

You can hit a dummy no issues, most dungeon bosses are easy to hit, but has anyone who said positionals are boring/busy work actually played Monk in an extreme or savage raid? Hitting those positionals around mechanics is what stops them being braindead, you have to anticipate what the boss and the rest of your team is going to do so that you both hit that positional and not screw the team up.

Also, to have to use overworld mobs to make the claim positionals were bad just shows a lack of understanding. Overworld mobs are weak and you aren't required to hit positionals, however, you still could with True North, RoE, Leg Sweep and just generally moving quick, so, you can still hit them if you want to. You also had to go back as far ad ARR and the 60 potency loss when ShB was down to 20 potency with Bootshine being a bit higher due to crit + TFC potency added on.

It has been said, positionals do not even matter for dungeons or even trials/normal raids. There is no enrage to clear (for the most part) so losing out on 20 potency here and there is not a big deal and that is the point. The positionals were not much of a gain DPS wise, however, it was enough to show the difference between a good Monk and a great Monk. That Monk who is just playing it for fun Vs. the Monk who plays it a bit more seriously. If you never played Monk to the point where you were trying to hit every positional and manoeuvring around mechanics to achieve that goal, you will probably never understand why more serious Monk players enjoyed it as much as we did.

Dragoon was also quite heavier on positionals originally as well and they removed some of them, Monk ones just were ignored for a longer time. We gotta acept that old Monk is NOT coming back moreso considering how unpopular has been for ages, and they will force Blitz rework on our throats no matter what even if they will eventually fix some parts that are currently lacking and call it a day.

They are keen on lowering positionals on everyone to a minimum (im betting they will also lower DRG to 2 eventually), so it wasnt a Monk issue but simply Monk was the one most affected by the changes. We can fight for having a better, more cohesive kit instead of what we got but the time of heavy positional jobs is over considering how they have been nerfing the positional bonus since quite a while ago to the point that unless you are parsing for high scores you could ignore most of positionals and still clear the hardest content as long as you perform your rotation and use your buffs properly. Not even mentioning the "free positional" bosses exist for a reason

[Mikey_R]

2.0 Dragoon's positionals were a hinderance to the job though, having them on heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive, miss heavy Thrust, you do not get the Heavy Thrust damage buff, miss Impulse Drive and it did not combo into Disembowel. This is positionals being a detriment to a job, you can complain about an unpredictable boss or get frustrated with the hyperactive tank, that is why they removed the necessity of hitting the positional to get the benefits and kept it at just the potency loss, though the one on Impulse Drive was moved to Chaos Thrust.

As for Monk's popularity, it is still unpopular going by FFLogs data. This is still early days, it might swing one way or another, who knows, however, nothing has changed and one thing we can be certain of, the changes have pushed some dedicated Monks off the job.

How are they lowering the positionals on everyone? Monk is the only one that got positionals removed. Dragoon still has the same, Samurai has the same, they were changed from losing Kenki to losing potency however and Ninja has not lost any, though they would probably be used less because of Forked/Fleeting Raiju we cannot comment on Reaper as this is the only version we know. Even if you had kept all positionals, Monk would have still done less due to Masterful Blitzes likely not needing a positional to increase potency (no AoE move does after all).

If positional bonuses are small enough that they are 'useless', then why get rid of them in the first place? By your own admission it didn't affect anything so why not have it there for those that want it? As for Omni bosses, think about the arena and what the fight forces you to do. The only one in EW that comes to mind is the second boss of Pandemonium, where in the fight, you are heavily restricted as to where you can move making landing positionals in some cases impossible for large stretches of time. Infact, lets list the EW bosses that do not have positionals:

83 Dungeon last boss, can't get to back, 89 Dungeon last boss, can't get to back, level 90 Dungeon, TDE second boss, IIRC this boss doesn't have positionals, however I believe this is because the boss doesn't really have a front or back, it doesn't even move throughout the fight, not even spinning, so I believe this one is a design choice. Level 90 dungeon, Sm, the first and last bosses, you cannot get to the back, level 90 Dungeon, TSD, only the last boss has no positionals and you cannot really get to the back effectively and considering it doesn't move or spin your back would be close to the wall always and it would interfere with fight flow. Level 83 and 90 trials you cannot get to the back of. From the raid I have already explained.

So, of all the bosses in EW so far, there are only 3 that are omni-directional and you could in theory attack all sides but due to fight design, they made them omni-directional.

There is no precedent for removing positionals, there is no pattern that shows they are attempting to remove positionals and I guarantee the backlash would not have been so big if they had stuck to the original plan of just removing the positionals from Raptor Form. People wanted a high positional job, that is a reason they went to Monk and now that is gone. There was no need to remove the option.

EDIT: I'm not going to change anything from my original post, just correct a mistake. the level 90 dungeon TDE second boss does infact have positionals and the boss does not move during any of it's AoE attacks, not even forcibly, so I made the mistake in assuming it was omni-directional. Which puts the number of omni-directional bosses who do not have a but against a wall down to 2.