*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Cilia]

Venat's reasoning can be summed up in two points:

1. "I don't want to cause a panic."
2. "We still need Hermes' expertise on dynamis."

Given one depressed Ancient inadvertently ended up creating what became a truly omnicidal menace, I can't see a whole society of them knowing their end is inevitably nigh especially considering they'd rather kill themselves than confront their grief ending well; and like it or not Hermes was the foremost expert on dynamis and entelechies, and said expertise would be needed to see them through the Final Days crisis (implicitly, to help fashion Zodiark).

No, I don't believe turtling behind Zodiark forever was a proper solution. Even if his aetheric barrier lasted indefinitely, the Ancients would more than likely have gone the way of the Plenty once they reached their "perfect paradise... free from sorrow," given they were already doing that on an individual level.

She was able to break it but very slowly. I can remember a cutscene in that Yshtola(?) tells the player that the overall amount of aether on the planet decreases and they don't know the reason for it. So the final days would still happen, but later.

That's not totally accurate, but it does bring up another plot hole I've never seen anyone else point out. (Guess those only matter when you disagree with a character's reasoning.)

The dip in aetheric levels across the planet was due to the influx of Light / Umbral aspected aether from the First slowing the world's aetherial circulation. Shadowbringers reveals to us this is due to the Rejoining process, whereby a reflection's aether seeps into the Source, causing an aetheric imbalance, after which a Calamity is triggered on the Source to complete the process. (Apropos of which, wasn't the lower aether levels hinted at in 2.5, which got lost in the drama of Wilred's murder, the Braves' treachery, and the disastrous banquet? I didn't forget, it just wasn't addressed.)

The problem is Y'shtola sees this as evidence that a Calamity is nigh due to the same thing happening before Dalamud's fall... but that Calamity was Dark / Astral aspected, so aether levels should have risen across the planet.

[Vyrerus]

Venat's reasoning

Was weak.

1. She did much more than incite panic when she engaged in civil war and sundered the world, so that personal belief of hers about the situation rings hollow.
2. She's acting as though Hermes is the only individual on the entire planet that knows about Dynamis. It's like saying Niels Bohr was the only way forward in Quantum Physics, when he had contemporaries he worked closely with to perfect mathematics and theories (such as Heisenburg, the guy credited with Quantum Mechanics). She's also acting like she doesn't have the time to seek his tutelage. Why not become a genuine pupil of his, very readily interested in Dynamis and the construction of Entelechies? He doesn't need to know why.

The premise of this thread is intrinsically flawed. Zodiark wasn't constructed to be a solution for Meteion. Just a solution for the observable phenomena for which we know she is ultimately the source. Zodiark was basically constructed to combat her shadow, nothing more, because the Convocation wasn't given the information about her.

As for the Rejoining mechanics, the crystals observed are deaspected which means they've lost their elemental polarity, rather than their umbral or astral one. They don't have less aether, just no element. That's what Y'shtola observes. The portion around Wilred was inconclusive ambient aether recordings. The researcher is musing, "Is it because of the primal(Odin)? Or something else?" When he stumbles about the young Ala Mhigan that has come down with a sudden case of traitor's blade in his gut. I'd surmise that the aetheric imbalance in calamities forces aspected aether to shift to fulfill the elemental strain placed on the Source by the primed Shard. Aether levels in the Source actually always rise, it's just a shift and disturbance can be noted, because the shifts are dramatic.

Think of it like the tide rushing out, suddenly decreasing the water level on a beach just prior to a tsunami. An astral aspected calamity likely caused an even more dramatic low tide, as it were.

[EaraGrace]

Was weak.

1. She did much more than incite panic when she engaged in civil war and sundered the world, so that personal belief of hers about the situation rings hollow.
2. She's acting as though Hermes is the only individual on the entire planet that knows about Dynamis. It's like saying Niels Bohr was the only way forward in Quantum Physics, when he had contemporaries he worked closely with to perfect mathematics and theories (such as Heisenburg, the guy credited with Quantum Mechanics). She's also acting like she doesn't have the time to seek his tutelage. Why not become a genuine pupil of his, very readily interested in Dynamis and the construction of Entelechies? He doesn't need to know why.

1. Venat correctly surmised that Ancient society would struggle to accept an answer for the song oblivion. Acting rashly to tell people could’ve potentially caused the Final Days to succeed, or even after they had been halted, for there to be consequences that doomed all life. She told those she felt would be able to understand without jeopardizing the Convocations efforts.

2. He’s the only person who understands Dynamis. Those who even knew it existed were very few in number, even less still recognized it could be studied or that it had uses. Hermes was the only one who had both the knowledge, the motivation, and the resources to study it. And he was secretive about it. This isn’t someone studying quantum physics to bring about a new understanding of the universe for the good of all. This is someone studying quantum physics so that they can find the meaning of life and have a reason to move forward. He didn’t share anything with his colleagues, never submitted the concepts to the Bureau and made clear he didn’t want others to know.

[Vyrerus]

1. Venat correctly surmised

1. Venat didn't give Ancient society a chance to answer the song of oblivion, because she didn't reveal it to them. She kept to vague platitudes, and then killed her entire race, after they'd put a bulwark in place to save and protect all life on Etheirys.

2. Wrong! The former researcher who created the Elpis flowers understood Dynamis to an extent. Meteion even refers to them as entelechies. Hermes implies that there are yet still other entelechies, but Meteion is, "The first possessed of free will." He is also 100% candid an open about why he created Meteion when asked why by Emet-selch, though he does not delve into details at the time.

[YianKutku]

2. Wrong! The former researcher who created the Elpis flowers understood Dynamis to an extent. Meteion even refers to them as entelechies. Hermes implies that there are yet still other entelechies, but Meteion is, "The first possessed of free will." He is also 100% candid an open about why he created Meteion when asked why by Emet-selch, though he does not delve into details at the time.

No, the former researcher did not. Hermes referred to Elpis flowers as "a happy accident".

[Vyrerus]

No, the former researcher did not. Hermes referred to Elpis flowers as "a happy accident".

Hermes's exact dialogue on the subject.

Most discoveries in history are, "Happy Accidents." Understanding comes later. This is the root of all Ancients discovering and understanding Dynamis. This means and proves that there are other Ancients who know as much about it as and BEFORE Hermes. Sorry, but them's the breaks.

[YianKutku]

Hermes's exact dialogue on the subject.

Most discoveries in history are, "Happy Accidents." Understanding comes later. This is the root of all Ancients discovering and understanding Dynamis. This means and proves that there are other Ancients who know as much about it as and BEFORE Hermes. Sorry, but them's the breaks.

No, the dialogue literally says it is a "happy accident". It says nothing about the former researcher then looking into the specifics of dynamis, or that they did anything other than create the flowers.

If we are operating entirely on what is said rather than what we think is implied, then there is no evidence that the former researcher was even aware of dynamis, or by what mechanism the flowers change colours.

[EaraGrace]

1. Venat didn't give Ancient society a chance to answer the song of oblivion, because she didn't reveal it to them. She kept to vague platitudes, and then killed her entire race, after they'd put a bulwark in place to save and protect all life on Etheirys.

2. Wrong! The former researcher who created the Elpis flowers understood Dynamis to an extent. Meteion even refers to them as entelechies. Hermes implies that there are yet still other entelechies, but Meteion is, "The first possessed of free will." He is also 100% candid an open about why he created Meteion when asked why by Emet-selch, though he does not delve into details at the time.

1. You are leaving out two cutscenes worth of context, both of which directly contradict this point. She approached both the Convocation and her fellow Amaurotines to convince them to face the song of oblivion. This is despite what many people here believe, that Her intent was always to begin the Sundering, which would make Her actions nonsensical. No, She did try to convince others to take a different path, and She was unable. Both in the cutscene in Anyder and in the cutscene following our departure from Elpis, we see Her arguments rejected in favor of placing faith in Zodiark, and in the belief that the world before the Final Days could be returned to, one that they believed would be without sorrow and suffering. That is clearly not an answer. And thus, to prevent mankind from being forever at the mercy of an all powerful deity that could solve whatever strife or struggle they faced, She sundered the world and Him.

2. "To an extent" is carrying this line of logic, and I'll be frank not very far. The Elpis flower, as was stated in the cutscene you posted, was an accident. The underlying mechanisms that govern Dynamis were not understood by its creator as far as we know. As it stands, one, and only one, person has shown understanding of how to manipulate and utilize Dynamis, as well as create Entelechies with wills of their own, that being Hermes. And he only did so by his own admission out of necessity to create a being that could traverse the great expanse. There is no evidence that beyond the flower and the Meteions, entelechies can be found or even existed. The head of the Bureau of Concepts and a member of the Convocation needed to be explained the concept as well as the very idea of Entelechies, and there are no existing species with the ability to manipulate Dynamis. The only ones known are the Elpis flower and Meteion.

In the words of Hermes

'Tis a truly esoteric thing, known to but a select few scholars.

And even then, to know of something is one thing, its another to understand it. Venat was in the former herself when we meet Her in Elpis.

[Vyrerus]

1. You are leaving out

1. She did not reveal the truth about Meteion to the Ancients. She expected them to give up Zodiark with no knowledge that Meteion was the cause that necessitated his existence in the first place. She asked them to give up a tangible god that had saved and restored the world. With no proper incentive.

2. The only ones shown are Meteion and the Elpis flower. In the same breath Hermes alludes to other, "ordinary" entelechies by telling Meteion that she is no ordinary entelechy. The narrative suffers from telling us too much, and from hinting at other areas and people it does not/will not show. It really wouldn't have been much of a hurdle for them to not undercut their own story by not doing that. It hurts to see.

[EaraGrace]

1. She did not reveal the truth about Meteion to the Ancients. She expected them to give up Zodiark with no knowledge that Meteion was the cause that necessitated his existence in the first place. She asked them to give up a tangible god that had saved and restored the world. With no proper incentive.

2. The only ones shown are Meteion and the Elpis flower. In the same breath Hermes alludes to other, "ordinary" entelechies by telling Meteion that she is no ordinary entelechy. The narrative suffers from telling us too much, and from hinting at other areas and people it does not/will not show. It really wouldn't have been much of a hurdle for them to not undercut their own story by not doing that. It hurts to see.

1. I don't believe She asked that however. She asked for them not to sacrifice new lives to regain old ones, and to accept suffering as a constant companion as a part of how life is, but no where did She ask them to give up Zodiark. Only when it was clear they did not intend to remember the Final Days and its impact, did She move to sunder him. In a hypothetical where they didn't endeavour to bring back all of those they lost by sacrificing more, I do not believe She would have Sundered the world in the way she did.

2. I mean sure, they did not explicitly tell us no other Entelechies exist, but based on what we have been told their are a few facts we can discern.

1. No Entelechies but Meteion exist with a will of their own
2. Hytholodaeus knows of no submitted concept for an Entelechy and all but a handful of scholars know of Dynamis
3. No Entelechies have survived except for Meteion and the Elpis flower
4. The Elpis flower was an accident, had no practical applications, and Dynamis as a whole is an energy the Ancients cannot manipulate

I think its safe to assume from these facts that Hermes is one of a kind in regards to his work on Dyanmis, as well the only one with a known interest in exploring it.