*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Vyrerus]

Venat's reasoning

Was weak.

1. She did much more than incite panic when she engaged in civil war and sundered the world, so that personal belief of hers about the situation rings hollow.
2. She's acting as though Hermes is the only individual on the entire planet that knows about Dynamis. It's like saying Niels Bohr was the only way forward in Quantum Physics, when he had contemporaries he worked closely with to perfect mathematics and theories (such as Heisenburg, the guy credited with Quantum Mechanics). She's also acting like she doesn't have the time to seek his tutelage. Why not become a genuine pupil of his, very readily interested in Dynamis and the construction of Entelechies? He doesn't need to know why.

The premise of this thread is intrinsically flawed. Zodiark wasn't constructed to be a solution for Meteion. Just a solution for the observable phenomena for which we know she is ultimately the source. Zodiark was basically constructed to combat her shadow, nothing more, because the Convocation wasn't given the information about her.

As for the Rejoining mechanics, the crystals observed are deaspected which means they've lost their elemental polarity, rather than their umbral or astral one. They don't have less aether, just no element. That's what Y'shtola observes. The portion around Wilred was inconclusive ambient aether recordings. The researcher is musing, "Is it because of the primal(Odin)? Or something else?" When he stumbles about the young Ala Mhigan that has come down with a sudden case of traitor's blade in his gut. I'd surmise that the aetheric imbalance in calamities forces aspected aether to shift to fulfill the elemental strain placed on the Source by the primed Shard. Aether levels in the Source actually always rise, it's just a shift and disturbance can be noted, because the shifts are dramatic.

Think of it like the tide rushing out, suddenly decreasing the water level on a beach just prior to a tsunami. An astral aspected calamity likely caused an even more dramatic low tide, as it were.

[EaraGrace]

Was weak.

1. She did much more than incite panic when she engaged in civil war and sundered the world, so that personal belief of hers about the situation rings hollow.
2. She's acting as though Hermes is the only individual on the entire planet that knows about Dynamis. It's like saying Niels Bohr was the only way forward in Quantum Physics, when he had contemporaries he worked closely with to perfect mathematics and theories (such as Heisenburg, the guy credited with Quantum Mechanics). She's also acting like she doesn't have the time to seek his tutelage. Why not become a genuine pupil of his, very readily interested in Dynamis and the construction of Entelechies? He doesn't need to know why.

1. Venat correctly surmised that Ancient society would struggle to accept an answer for the song oblivion. Acting rashly to tell people could’ve potentially caused the Final Days to succeed, or even after they had been halted, for there to be consequences that doomed all life. She told those she felt would be able to understand without jeopardizing the Convocations efforts.

2. He’s the only person who understands Dynamis. Those who even knew it existed were very few in number, even less still recognized it could be studied or that it had uses. Hermes was the only one who had both the knowledge, the motivation, and the resources to study it. And he was secretive about it. This isn’t someone studying quantum physics to bring about a new understanding of the universe for the good of all. This is someone studying quantum physics so that they can find the meaning of life and have a reason to move forward. He didn’t share anything with his colleagues, never submitted the concepts to the Bureau and made clear he didn’t want others to know.

[Vyrerus]

1. Venat correctly surmised

1. Venat didn't give Ancient society a chance to answer the song of oblivion, because she didn't reveal it to them. She kept to vague platitudes, and then killed her entire race, after they'd put a bulwark in place to save and protect all life on Etheirys.

2. Wrong! The former researcher who created the Elpis flowers understood Dynamis to an extent. Meteion even refers to them as entelechies. Hermes implies that there are yet still other entelechies, but Meteion is, "The first possessed of free will." He is also 100% candid an open about why he created Meteion when asked why by Emet-selch, though he does not delve into details at the time.

[Veloran]

Frankly the more I think about Venat's solution, the more problems I have with it.

Venat sundered the Ancients because they lacked the ability to manipulate Dynamis, and because she considered their society self-destructive, so she killed them in order to bring about the advent of a people and state of being that she considered more worthy of living. This is in fact the exact motivation of Emet-Selch and the Ascians, simply flipped on it's head to favor the sundered rather than the unsundered. Now on one level I think there's an element of parallelism at play that makes for excellent storytelling, but on another Venat's portrayal often seems so black-and-white that I'm really not sure if this was even the intent. Either way I can hardly see it as anything except the peak of hypocrisy.

[Rulakir]

Either way I can hardly see it as anything except the peak of hypocrisy.

I'll give you even more to consider. So, if we want to accept that Venat wanted the WoL's future to come to pass, and the WoL is 8x rejoined, then that means she created more than double the reflections necessary. Why? As fodder to the Ascians. People are quick to criticize the Ancients for making sacrifices to Zodiark while Hydaelyn literally created 8 additional shards to sacrifice to the Ascians so the WoL's future would occur. This is also the same woman whose contingency plan was to abandon the remaining shards, but she loves and protects life!

Her death count is unprecedented in the name of 'saving' Etheirys, worse than all antagonists combined save for Meteion. The best part is that because they went with a bootstrap paradox, the WoL gave her the playbook to follow. Feels good knowing that my character is an accomplice to all the atrocities that have happened over the last 12k years. *sigh*

[MikkoAkure]

Frankly the more I think about Venat's solution, the more problems I have with it.

Venat sundered the Ancients because they lacked the ability to manipulate Dynamis, and because she considered their society self-destructive, so she killed them in order to bring about the advent of a people and state of being that she considered more worthy of living. This is in fact the exact motivation of Emet-Selch and the Ascians, simply flipped on it's head to favor the sundered rather than the unsundered. Now on one level I think there's an element of parallelism at play that makes for excellent storytelling, but on another Venat's portrayal often seems so black-and-white that I'm really not sure if this was even the intent. Either way I can hardly see it as anything except the peak of hypocrisy.

A reborn Amaurot would not be the same Amaurot that came before it and would revolve around Zodiark. I'm not sure why people keep forgetting that point. The actions and attitude of the Ascians make it apparent that it would change from a society devoted to the Star to one devoted to their living god. The past they craved is lost forever outside of time shenanigans. Venat's actions make more sense when you realize what a post-Final Days Amaurot would actually be like.

Additionally, as mentioned before, Zodiark would have just put a band-aid on the problem since Meteion was speeding up the end of the universe. While one of Venat's two includes stopping it at its source.

But regardless of anyone's personal opinions on the story or character motivations are, that's the angle the writers went with and even a memory-restored, untempered Emet-Selch chooses ours and Venat's side over Elidibus and aids us in fundamentally destroying the whole Ascian plan and ruining the chance at a restored Amaurot and Zodiark.

[QT_Melon]

Again,

I think where story editing would have helped a lot more was cutting down some of the Labyrinthos stuff to show that Venat truly did exhaust her options may have helped this out. Especially with janky montage.

Having some crazy lab accident, with witnesses saying Venat was present, and looking over at doggo...makes me think of that old meme with the guy looking at the golden retriever with that "oh you..."

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/.../390/ohyou.jpg

You could just pretty much substitute Argos and Hytho's faces there :P

I mean sure later, they may expand upon her having that supposed conversation with Hythlodaeus who comes off as probably the most easily reasoned people to be around. Which is why Emet and Hythlo are like a buddy cop duo. But as current standings go, we haven't been given that moment to see if she could have convinced them otherwise.

Rather than have a conversation with random Etherians out on the street, to "I'M GONNA WRECK IT" (Sundering decision). The stakes of seeing the new life and what the plans for said new life should have been a high stakes moment. I think it was a missed opportunity since that discussion was always background fodder and showing said life would have probably made it more personal and the dilemma more in our face.

I know people were trying various reasonings to get people to stop these kinds of discussions "because you're being antagonistic with the story" or "you're not paying attention" to "it's just a video game" - but let's face it. There's some problems with presenting the story to push certain stakes - or didn't quite help various "camps" move to be more objectionable.

I think personally and just seeing that from others who have played the MSQ - that the conclusion before we go back to our time just had some missed opportunities along the way. I am just pointing out what would have helped out. I didn't feel that Zodiark was a long term plan that would have worked out. I think Venat's plan (despite the story forcing that) would work out given the timeline and circumstances surrounding. (I can't say it would have if say the Ascians DIDN'T start up Calamities and rejoinings). Meaning that it took both of them to oppose each other to a certain point to reforge our character into a being that COULD beat Endsinger.

Basically - Venat sunders, no Ascians mess with the world - we go in blindly ignorant of the threat even if we can feel it. I think would have been defeat.

Venat sunders, Ascians keep tinkering with events that while ends up in loss of life, re-forges us and gives us back some of our powers. We eventually get to understand the tragedies that happened in the past and armed with that knowledge we did defeat Endsinger.

We know, the story is done in terms of MSQ, what happened happened - but I don't think it will cause players to not debate it. I think EVEN with my suggestions - there would probably be some debate -but I think likely LESS of it.

[KizuyaKatogami]

But regardless of anyone's personal opinions on the story or character motivations are, that's the angle the writers went with and even a memory-restored, untempered Emet-Selch chooses ours and Venat's side over Elidibus and aids us in fundamentally destroying the whole Ascian plan and ruining the chance at a restored Amaurot and Zodiark.

And as we’ve seen, especially with this expansion, the writers have been incredibly flawed on many things. Also, they didn’t seem wholly devoted to Zodiark, as even whilst being fully tempered by him the Convocation was still skeptical on sacrifices and were in disagreement over it. So clearly they still had their own will through everything. They still were thinking about the star even after being tempered. Even Lahabrea says it lol.

[MikkoAkure]

And as we’ve seen, especially with this expansion, the writers have been incredibly flawed on many things. Also, they didn’t seem wholly devoted to Zodiark, as even whilst being fully tempered by him the Convocation was still skeptical on sacrifices and were in disagreement over it. So clearly they still had their own will through everything. They still were thinking about the star even after being tempered. Even Lahabrea says it lol.

I don't believe the Ascians were fully tempered, since they weren't exactly slaves to Him like how many other tempered are, but they still refer to Zodiark as "master" and "one true god". And yes, Lahabrea says that Hydaelyn needs to be "burned out so the star can live", but he also talks about how "that which shattered will be made anew... and the one true god will come again", mentioning Zodiark but nothing about his civilization. Still, Lahabrea seemed to be one of the more maverick Ascians since in other cases he seemed to suggest he had his own goals separate from the others, but all that got him was being called an idiot by his coworkers after he got too ambitious, failed, and died.

[Veloran]

And yes, Lahabrea says that Hydaelyn needs to be "burned out so the star can live", but he also talks about how "that which shattered will be made anew... and the one true god will come again", mentioning Zodiark but nothing about his civilization.

Aside from the fact that the Ancient story probably wasn't written back when he said that, "that which shattered will be made anew" can easily be read as rejoining the world.