*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Rulakir]

This whole argument seems to center on Hermes, who I have repeatedly pointed out was not necessary, but since it apparently bears repeating again, Elidibus says, before we go to Elpis and learn about dynamis, "Your understanding of what caused the Final Days is consistent with our own." Hermes didn't bring jack to the Convocation about dynamis so, no, this is not an acceptable excuse for Venat. It's something she should've already known too since it's been made abundantly clear since ShB that the Ancients - including Hermes/Fandaniel - had no idea what caused the Final Days, in fact, the whole point of the adventure in Eplis was to figure that out. It's amazing to me that this was even one of her reasons because it's completely illogical. As for Hermes becoming a foe, that assumes anyone tells him anything, which they have no reason to because he doesn't share anything that we don't already know with the Convocation. He should've just been apprehended, imprisoned, and never told why.

As for the second point, telling people about the dead worlds in space has little to do with the Final Days. The only thing it explains is why Meteion decided to become a nihilist, which is not a necessary piece of information. "One of Hermes creations went nuts and decided everything needs to die." End of story.

The short answer is: no. Venat didn't make the right choice. It was a morally reprehensible one that would be completely unjustifiable in any other situation where someone withheld potentially life saving information. I'm not 100% sure, but that might actually be a crime in our society.

[Jandor]

Meteion can corrupt the Ancients creation magic and turn it against them, I don't think they can't create their way out of this. They have to go themselves, and the Ancient hit-squad sent to Ultima Thule to whack Meteion gets to use basically stronger versions of the same magic as us, since their creation magic won't work properly, they also get hampered by having zero ability to manipulate dynamis.

So they get there, get out their spaceship, and then die because it's not even inhabitable and nothing prevents Meteion just unmaking you till Thancred turns into a ghost and does a lil dynamis manipulation on the place.

They could try creating more Entelechies, get the info out of Hermes somehow I guess, but the first batch sent up literally thought 'well this is sh*t' and decided to try and destroy the Universe, so that seems a risky gambit. Meteion is also already out there, capable of turning creations into monsters than eat Ancients, so... double risky gambit. You might end up basically sending her a bunch of convenient ammo packs.

-----

In short:
I don't think sending more creations after her would work.
I don't think the Ancients going after her themselves would work.
I also don't think splitting the world and hoping that several millennia of sundered mortality inures the inhabitants to suffering is a great plan, but I suppose it was the best Venat could come up with.

[Jandor]

I do wonder if the ancients really had no ability to manipulate dynamis. After beating Hydaelyn's trial and she asks us about Azem's crystal she says "it is thy hopes and prayers that enable Azem's invocations and give them life", so dynamis? When we receive the crystal from Hythlodaeus he says the crystal holds a singular invocation of Azem's own making; so if they made a spell that specifically utilises dynamis to call their allies, surely they can use it to some extent? Or Azem was a singularity? Even so though, why then could Azem not defeat Meteion? I hope when we find out more about Azem it will make things clearer, I also still want more specifics on what they were even doing in the Final Days considering they left Venat on read.

Maybe she means us specifically? As in, we should not be able to use that incantation because we are not an Ancient and we are not the Azem, but our hopes and prayers literally force it to work anyway. Would also function as further proof of our ability to utilize dynamis, which would add to our case that we're able to fight Meteion on somewhat fairer ground than the Ancients were.

Or alternatively, maybe she just means it in the original more metaphorical way?

[Slatersev]

So one of the bigger questions I sort of thought of; from a practical non-ideological standpoint, was sundering the star really necessary?

A sundered Zodiark, with only 7 rejoinings (even when he had NO rejoinings at one point); was able to hold The Final Days at bay for over 12,000 years with no real sign of faltering in the slightest. Wouldn't it stand to reason that full power unsundered Zodiark could just hold Meteion's dynamis wave back for pretty much all of eternity? Making the sundering pretty much pointless for non-ideological reasons.

Considering we find out in Ultima Thule that Meteion was speeding up the Heat Death of the Universe with Dynamis, no. She was always going to get Etheirys unless she was actively dealt with.

The Ancients turtling behind Zodiark isnt a stalemate for her, its just a road block she would eventually be able to break one way or the other

[Cleretic]

This whole argument seems to center on Hermes,

What you've forgotten is that Elidibus didn't know the actual inciting incident of the Final Days. His knowledge of the events around Elpis in particular was supplemented by the soul crystals we gave him--but remember that he only knew those events from the memories of the Emet-Selch and Fandaniel crystals, whose memories of Ktisis were erased.

So, yes. At that point, our understanding of what caused the Final Days was consistent; both sides knew about dynamis/akasa, but neither knew about Meteion, so both sides basically just knew 'something made the dynamis freak out'. Remember that the reason Elidibus sent us to Elpis wasn't because we needed to learn more than that, but because we are in the memories of Elpis he's got (presumably in passing from either Emet-Selch or Fandaniel, but Pandaemonium might give other explanations).

As I have pointed out several times, Hermes was an important person to have around because he was the only in-depth expert in dynamis that happened to have a position of power at the time. This not only meant that he was able to recognize and act on the problem--remember that dynamis is an esoteric field of study--but also let him manufacture an effective solution. If you will, picture designing Zodiark to be a bit like designing a nuclear reactor; sure, the two of us can probably grasp the fundamental concepts at play, but you really want an actual nuclear physicist to draw the thing up. And in this case, there's only one nuclear physicist, and he's got some mental health problems.

And yes, telling people about the space deaths probably isn't necessary, but the important part she's explaining to people--'something from out in deep space is trying to murder our entire planet'--is probably far more depressing. And we know that the Ancients deal with depressing news real badly. You kind of also have to be careful with saying 'and it's Hermes' fault', because again, he actually is needed, and the last thing you need is to roil up an angry mob at the guy.

It's best to remember a lot of the game's stated facts, because otherwise you'll be wasting time trying to poke open holes that you don't realize have actually been filled. It'll admit that's real damn hard, though, so sometimes it's best to take the game's word for the direction it's pointing.

[Cleretic]

Considering we find out in Ultima Thule that Meteion was speeding up the Heat Death of the Universe with Dynamis, no. She was always going to get Etheirys unless she was actively dealt with.

The Ancients turtling behind Zodiark isnt a stalemate for her, its just a road block she would eventually be able to break one way or the other

The sundering had multiple purposes.

1. To create more dynamis-capable people, because right now, Ancients can't do much of anything.
2. To ensure that the Ancients wouldn't keep going down the road of sacrificing things to Zodiark to bring back a now-unattainable paradise. By the time she actually did the sundering (after the 5.2 Anamnesis recording), the Ancients were on the third round of sacrifices, and by the time you're doing it a third time you start to question what's stopping the fourth.
3. To weaken Zodiark and get him out of the immediate picture while keeping the defense, because it's starting to look like people can't be trusted with that lever.

Zodiark made a stalemate, that yes, Meteion might've eventually cut through of her own volition (in all honestly, we don't actually have evidence for that being inevitable). But... well, is the stalemate a solution? The Ancients were starting to sacrifice the planet itself to Zodiark to pursue an illusion of comfort. Would they have stopped? Were the Ancients on their way to what we saw of the Plenty, destroying their own planet for a utopia that they can't even enjoy? If that's what you're protecting from Meteion, what is even going to be left when she eventually breaks through? Will what remains even be worth protecting?

None of those are rhetorical questions. I'm not inherently declaring a stance here, I'm laying out the things that need to be considered.

From a practical standpoint, sundering the star was the only way to make sure the fight could ever reach Meteion. The question you're answering is really more of a moral extension of it, 'was fighting Meteion needed', or perhaps more pointedly, 'was fighting Meteion worth it'. Personally, I think the answer is 'yes', but it's not a question with only one good answer.

[Larirawiel]

The Ancients turtling behind Zodiark isnt a stalemate for her, its just a road block she would eventually be able to break one way or the other

She was able to break it but very slowly. I can remember a cutscene in that Yshtola(?) tells the player that the overall amount of aether on the planet decreases and they don't know the reason for it. So the final days would still happen, but later.

Cheers

[Garnetiferous]

She was able to break it but very slowly. I can remember a cutscene in that Yshtola(?) tells the player that the overall amount of aether on the planet decreases and they don't know the reason for it. So the final days would still happen, but later.

Cheers

This, assuming you're talking about the scene before ShB, is related to the Ascians attempting to join the first with the source and not to the Final Days. I don't think there was any evidence of Zodiark's shield failing at any point with him still alive.

[Rulakir]

What you've forgotten is that Elidibus didn't know the actual inciting incident of the Final Days. His knowledge of the events around Elpis in particular was supplemented by the soul crystals we gave him--but remember that he only knew those events from the memories of the Emet-Selch and Fandaniel crystals, whose memories of Ktisis were erased.

Elidibus doesn't need to know about Elpis to tell the WoL what Fandaniel did during the Final Days.

As I have pointed out several times, Hermes was an important person to have around because he was the only in-depth expert in dynamis that happened to have a position of power at the time. This not only meant that he was able to recognize and act on the problem--remember that dynamis is an esoteric field of study--but also let him manufacture an effective solution.

I'm aware, it's been your consistent fallback despite nothing in the game corroborating it, otherwise it might be a convincing counter. At most I'll agree that perhaps Venat assumed that would be the case, again, with no evidence, which given her poor judgement probably shouldn't be surprising.

Unfortunately, Fandaniel as a character exists separate from anyone who could definitively say whether or not he ever mentioned dynamis. Since there is no proof, it's just conjecture. Elidibus is the closest we've gotten and he only credits him for discovering the Final Days was manifesting were where currents were weak, which was something we already knew. Venat could've easily tapped Emet with that information who would've investigated it and found it to be true so, again, Hermes was not needed.

If you will, picture designing Zodiark to be a bit like designing a nuclear reactor; sure, the two of us can probably grasp the fundamental concepts at play, but you really want an actual nuclear physicist to draw the thing up. And in this case, there's only one nuclear physicist, and he's got some mental health problems.

Okay, I'm going to need a source on Fandaniel being the architect of Zodiark. I may have missed or forgotten some information somewhere, but all I recall is that Zodiark was designed specifically with a dark aspect to bring activity to the areas where the currents were weak.

And yes, telling people about the space deaths probably isn't necessary, but the important part she's explaining to people--'something from out in deep space is trying to murder our entire planet'--is probably far more depressing. And we know that the Ancients deal with depressing news real badly. You kind of also have to be careful with saying 'and it's Hermes' fault', because again, he actually is needed, and the last thing you need is to roil up an angry mob at the guy.

Who takes depressing news well? The Ancients were intelligent and cared about their star (to the extent 75% of them were willing to give up their lives for it), I saw no reason to believe them incapable of pulling themselves together to deal with a crisis. And, no, that horrible post-Elpis scene was not it. You don't walk up to people experiencing that level of devastation and tell them they're handling their trauma and grief wrong, it's incredibly tone deaf.

It's best to remember a lot of the game's stated facts, because otherwise you'll be wasting time trying to poke open holes that you don't realize have actually been filled. It'll admit that's real damn hard, though, so sometimes it's best to take the game's word for the direction it's pointing.

I take things literally and at face value, can't speak for anyone else who sees things that aren't there.

[Cilia]

Venat's reasoning can be summed up in two points:

1. "I don't want to cause a panic."
2. "We still need Hermes' expertise on dynamis."

Given one depressed Ancient inadvertently ended up creating what became a truly omnicidal menace, I can't see a whole society of them knowing their end is inevitably nigh especially considering they'd rather kill themselves than confront their grief ending well; and like it or not Hermes was the foremost expert on dynamis and entelechies, and said expertise would be needed to see them through the Final Days crisis (implicitly, to help fashion Zodiark).

No, I don't believe turtling behind Zodiark forever was a proper solution. Even if his aetheric barrier lasted indefinitely, the Ancients would more than likely have gone the way of the Plenty once they reached their "perfect paradise... free from sorrow," given they were already doing that on an individual level.

She was able to break it but very slowly. I can remember a cutscene in that Yshtola(?) tells the player that the overall amount of aether on the planet decreases and they don't know the reason for it. So the final days would still happen, but later.

That's not totally accurate, but it does bring up another plot hole I've never seen anyone else point out. (Guess those only matter when you disagree with a character's reasoning.)

The dip in aetheric levels across the planet was due to the influx of Light / Umbral aspected aether from the First slowing the world's aetherial circulation. Shadowbringers reveals to us this is due to the Rejoining process, whereby a reflection's aether seeps into the Source, causing an aetheric imbalance, after which a Calamity is triggered on the Source to complete the process. (Apropos of which, wasn't the lower aether levels hinted at in 2.5, which got lost in the drama of Wilred's murder, the Braves' treachery, and the disastrous banquet? I didn't forget, it just wasn't addressed.)

The problem is Y'shtola sees this as evidence that a Calamity is nigh due to the same thing happening before Dalamud's fall... but that Calamity was Dark / Astral aspected, so aether levels should have risen across the planet.