*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[YianKutku]

In the german version Hermes says that the difference between such beings is the soul but that the Ancients cant create one thus its bascially RNG if a creation gets one.

And even though we do have a soul (even if its sundered) Hythlo and Emet still called us an It for quite some time at the beginning and most Ancients there did see us as just an familiar. Basically if you are not a born Ancient you are in some ways bellow them.

So I can fully see that they would still "kill" a concept even if it had a soul.

We also ask if Meteion has a soul, and Hermes's response is "don't know, don't care" (in a positive way, in that he would treasure her regardless), while the Convocation as represented by Emet-Selch is willing to detain and interrogate Meteion without checking if she has a soul.

So my read is that the presence of a soul is not a major consideration with regards to how the Amaurotines would treat a creation, except perhaps as proof that the creation is self-sustaining according to natural laws (which was the pre-requisite for getting a soul in the first place). When the proto-Phoenix in the short stories got a soul, the procedure was to delete and start over, which is consistent with what happens in Elpis. And that's not inherently morally wrong, since that's what Elpis is for, but it's evidence that the presence of a soul doesn't confer any special privileges for a given creation.

[KageTokage]

The phoenix was a weird case of something gaining a soul in an unnatural manner as it was an arcane entity that was possessed by an existing soul that was meant to return to the Lifestream, but had lingering regrets that kept it from passing peacefully.

But yeah, they don't really care whether or not something has a soul as many of the Ancients giving out quests acknowledge that you're strange due to seemingly being a familiar with a soul, then readily send you off to do some dangerous task they'd rather not be risking their lives with.

[Zoliru]

That was a major part of ancient society, the fact that they were able to see souls meant that they knew nobody really "died", they soul would live on.

More importantly though, I am curious, souls clearly can be used for power via summoning methods, but can souls be destroyed? As in truly extinguished and gone forever?

[KageTokage]

While they initially claimed that the soul of those transformed into blasphemies is completely destroyed, it seems like there's at least some actual trace of it left behind.

role quest spoiler

Which is given a bit more focus in the healer role quest as once its blasphemy is destroyed, Fordola seems have an Echo-granted vision of its former self departing to join the rest of her friends, which grants her some measure of comfort.

[EaraGrace]

While they initially claimed that the soul of those transformed into blasphemies is completely destroyed, it seems like there's at least some actual trace of it left behind.

role quest spoiler

Which is given a bit more focus in the healer role quest as once its blasphemy is destroyed, Fordola seems have an Echo-granted vision of its former self departing to join the rest of her friends, which grants her some measure of comfort.

Role quest spoodles

In the quest line they really pushed the point on how much of Charlet remained and was guiding the Blasphemies behavior. Perhaps if one’s soul still shines through enough, it’s a sign it can still to return to the sea?

[Cleretic]

While they initially claimed that the soul of those transformed into blasphemies is completely destroyed, it seems like there's at least some actual trace of it left behind.

role quest spoiler

Which is given a bit more focus in the healer role quest as once its blasphemy is destroyed, Fordola seems have an Echo-granted vision of its former self departing to join the rest of her friends, which grants her some measure of comfort.

I'm not sure how much of that is evidence per se.

They've never shied away from doing symbolic and clearly non-literal scenes (hell, even this expansion had a big one in the post-Elpis cutscene). And on top of that, Fordola is... not well, and hasn't necessarily been kept abreast of the situation with the finer details of the Blasphemies. I think it's more likely that Fordola essentially pictured that scene to make herself feel better. Because... hell, nobody told her it doesn't work like that. And even if someone did, I'm not sure she'd listen, she is very stubborn.

[Alleo]

We also ask if Meteion has a soul, and Hermes's response is "don't know, don't care" (in a positive way, in that he would treasure her regardless), while the Convocation as represented by Emet-Selch is willing to detain and interrogate Meteion without checking if she has a soul.

And yet Hermes still sent her sisters out into the unknown just so that he gets an answer. He is much more caring (but the side quests there show that others are caring as well) but he still creates beings for a certain purpose. To reach his goal he sents a big amount of creatures after us, that all died in a painful way , he blasts us of the arena which would have killed us without Venat saving us. Us who showed him that others can feel sad too.

He knows what the Final Days will bring, not only to mankind but all the creations.

Honestly he really felt like two different people in Elpis. I just cant feel much sympathy for the one he became at the end. (And his decision also meant that Meteion and all of her sister would have to suffer for over 12.000 years...until we come along to put an end to it.)

[DarkKiru]

So one of the bigger questions I sort of thought of; from a practical non-ideological standpoint, was sundering the star really necessary?

A sundered Zodiark, with only 7 rejoinings (even when he had NO rejoinings at one point); was able to hold The Final Days at bay for over 12,000 years with no real sign of faltering in the slightest. Wouldn't it stand to reason that full power unsundered Zodiark could just hold Meteion's dynamis wave back for pretty much all of eternity? Making the sundering pretty much pointless for non-ideological reasons.

[MikkoAkure]

So one of the bigger questions I sort of thought of; from a practical non-ideological standpoint, was sundering the star really necessary?

A sundered Zodiark, with only 7 rejoinings (even when he had NO rejoinings at one point); was able to hold The Final Days at bay for over 12,000 years with no real sign of faltering in the slightest. Wouldn't it stand to reason that full power unsundered Zodiark could just hold Meteion's dynamis wave back for pretty much all of eternity? Making the sundering pretty much pointless for non-ideological reasons.

Sundering Zodiark served two main purposes. First and most important of which was to imprison Zodiark. A unsundered Zodiark is stronger than Hydaelyn and would also mean an unsundered Convocation and the sacrifice of the world's new life in order to bring back Amaurot, which is the entire reason why Hydaelyn was summoned to stop in the first place.

The second reason:

is the classic JRPG trope "the people of the ancient past are unable to fix the problem on our own so we shoved it away and it is up to random adventurers to meet the problem head on and destroy it once and for all". Ancients could not interact with dynamis because their aether is too dense. Sundered people can. Half of the equation for fighting Meteion is the ability to interact with dynamis, the other half is 12000 years of condensed aether Hydaelyn has collected from sitting atop the Lifestream.

So while a full-powered Zodiark could hold the Final Days at bay forever, the world would not be ours and the rest of the universe would eventually twinkle out of existence around us. In my opinion, the world wouldn't be the Ancients' either. A fully-powered Zodiark means an Amaurot that revolves around Him, not the same Amaurot that existed before.


Also, welcome to the forums!

[Jandor]

So one of the bigger questions I sort of thought of; from a practical non-ideological standpoint, was sundering the star really necessary?

A sundered Zodiark, with only 7 rejoinings (even when he had NO rejoinings at one point); was able to hold The Final Days at bay for over 12,000 years with no real sign of faltering in the slightest. Wouldn't it stand to reason that full power unsundered Zodiark could just hold Meteion's dynamis wave back for pretty much all of eternity? Making the sundering pretty much pointless for non-ideological reasons.

In terms of the life of the Universe, or even the planet, even 12,000 years isn't that long. While it's concievable that he could have held the final days at bay forever, I think it's also worth bearing in mind that Meteion only has to win once, Zodiark has to win again and again, forever.