*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Kozh]

So we’re just to ignore Ultima? Omega? The inevitable end of the universe? Just pray to Zodiark and he’ll fix it?

Why the hell are you bringing omega and inevitable end of universe? We're talking about meteion, no? Like I've said before, while zodiark cannot defeat meteion and only act as barrier, it gave them 12k years, more if He didn't die, to look for a method to fight back against meteion. If they failed in the end? Well at least they tried. If they were able to? Good for them. But venat never give them the chance to do it.

She quite literally said the exact opposite of what you’re claiming she did.

You should look the definition of opposite if this is what you claim as it is. Do I make it sound like she's uncaring bitch? Yes. But what you provide here doesn't contradict my point you know. Move on doesn't mean you have to forget the thing.

Seriously, show me where she explained the true nature of final days. Show me where she went "guys, hermes action is partly our society fault. Please listen to what I said". Do you punish you kid for stealing from their friend and only give the explanation "stealing is bad, stop it", and refuse to elaborate further when your kid ask why it's bad? Because that's what venat did.

The countless civilizations that Meteion found would claim otherwise.

And here I thought we're talking about the Ancients, not other civilizations.

[RyuDragnier]

I am more putting myself in their shoes. I cannot fathom having to go through an apocalypse that involves creatures of nightmare slaughtering people in the streets. Much like the end of ShB, I can't imagine half our society being willing to sacrifice itself for the other half either. I feel like them coming together en masse during a crisis like that doesn't get enough recognition and, honestly, after the past two years of polarization (at least in the US), I feel it should. I know if someone came up to me and said that I wasn't handling my trauma or grief the way they thought I should, I would tell them where they could shove their opinion. :P If someone said they could bring back my deceased loved ones, you bet I'd be interested in what they had to say.

I observed a range of emotion in the Ancients, a willingness to do whatever it takes, and an unprecedented unification. I would've liked to have seen what they were capable of given a fighting chance. I'm sure some of them would've freaked out, just like people in the real world freaked out more than others about the pandemic, but enough would've come together as we've already seen. I also think that if "The land was blighted, the waters poisoned, and even the wind had ceased to blow." I would wish for the 'good old days' as well. Plus, even if they did get their "perfect paradise" back, the experiences of the Final Days would be seared into them forever. I sincerely doubt their society would've been able to go back to any semblance of normalcy.

I would be unable to even entertain the thought of bringing back people I loved, because it would mean I'd still be rooted to the past, nothing more than a fool who can't move on with their life. You live, you love, you lose, these are things everybody has to deal with. To deny loss is to deny the growth that comes with it, to deny change.

As for the Ancients, they seemed to believe (or at least it's what Emet and the Ascians were pushing) that once they returned everyone everything would go back to normal. They didn't want their society to change, and after cheating death like that once, you know they'd do it again and again with each threat that popped up. They would not learn from the pain and loss.

[Anvaire]

If im honest, I dont think they were given enough time to reach a solution to the problem or to work through their grief long enough to realise that things could never return exactly to the past. The ancients were people who knew how souls would eventually be reborn as new souls. I think that is what they wanted to achieve. To restore their civilisation and return those sacrificed to the aetherial sea. Elidibus withdrawing himself to mediate the conflict meant that while they were requesting the sacrifice, zodiark was rendered inert. He wouldnt have been able to do what they wanted. Elidibus never managed to mediate though, because Hydealyn deciced to striaght up murder the other side and impose the sundering on it. We can see from Elpis that the ancients, were not blood thirsty and were all about trying to the right thing. All Emet wanted with Meteoin was to take her back to Amaurot to ascertain the full extent of her findings. It was Hermes that pushed that too far and allowed the situation to get as bad as it was.

Going back to the initial question, i think that with enough time to overcome the shock, they would have ultimately rebuilt their society and accepted the loss. They were not used to forced death, only death chosen by the individual so the calamity was more than the collapse of their society and tragedy, it forced them to face mortality and the things they turned a blind eye to. In all likelyhood they would have ultimately come through it and gone on to tackle the Issue Meteion created. Its possible the meteion we journeyed with would have calmed down enough to realise it was wrong. Siding with Emet to cause the calamity would have been wrong. But if given the choice, i would have freed Zodiark and restored Elidibus' soul to it. Which would have then prevented it being used the way it was.

[Lyth]

Zodiark was just running a Ponzi scheme with souls. I'll save your world for half of all your souls. I'll restore the damage done from saving your world for half of your remaining souls. I'll restore the original souls if you give me an equivalent amount of non-Amaurotian souls. If Tataru were around back then, I'm pretty sure that she wouldn't let you invest in Zodiark.

[Garnetiferous]

If im honest, I dont think they were given enough time to reach a solution to the problem or to work through their grief long enough to realise that things could never return exactly to the past.

The timing issue is a problem for me. Because the scene post Elpis is metaphorical, there's no way to know exactly how much time from the 2nd sacrifice to the sundering there was. If the ancients were sitting around for a thousand years not really accomplishing much of anything, then Venat's actions make a lot more sense. But if it's only been like a month or two, Venat comes across as far more cruel and callous. We do know that she and her supporters tried at least twice to convince the greater part of society not to go through with the 3rd sacrifice but without the time scale involved here, at least in my opinion, I can't really say if her actions were justified or not.

Zodiark was just running a Ponzi scheme with souls. I'll save your world for half of all your souls. I'll restore the damage done from saving your world for half of your remaining souls. I'll restore the original souls if you give me an equivalent amount of non-Amaurotian souls. If Tataru were around back then, I'm pretty sure that she wouldn't let you invest in Zodiark.

You have to realize that Zodiark did everything that was asked of him. He not only saved the world, he gave Hydaelyn enough time to enact her plan to stop Meteion once and for all. This is why she imprisoned Zodiark instead of killing him. And why when we defeated him, the Watcher, who is there because of Hydaelyn, tried to rebind him. Without the ancients summoning Zodiark, the world dies in the first final days.

[Jandor]

Emet: 'My plan sucked, wouldn't have worked.'

Lore forum: 'No no, hold on a sec, I think its got potential!'

[EaraGrace]

Why the hell are you bringing omega and inevitable end of universe? We're talking about meteion, no? Like I've said before, while zodiark cannot defeat meteion and only act as barrier, it gave them 12k years, more if He didn't die, to look for a method to fight back against meteion. If they failed in the end? Well at least they tried. If they were able to? Good for them. But venat never give them the chance to do it.

First, no need to get testy. Second, I’m bringing them up to highlight that threats do exist outside of Meteion, one’s Zodiark is not guaranteed to overcome. Third, Zodiark was more than a barrier unsundered. He was a deity worshipped by the Ancients who had the power to give them what they thought would be a world “free of sorrow.” The temptation to rely on Him was the issue, and one anyone would understandably struggle with. And given we are told explicitly of a civilization that collapsed under the watch of a patron deity, as well as many others who avoided answering the question, I think that would be a worrying development for multiple reasons.

You should look the definition of opposite if this is what you claim as it is. Do I make it sound like she's uncaring bitch? Yes. But what you provide here doesn't contradict my point you know. Move on doesn't mean you have to forget the thing.

She explicitly asked them to remember and process the grief they felt, that’s her whole point. That fact they respond with no, and instead seek to bring back those they lost by sacrificing more isn’t them working through their feelings, it’s denying them. Also really, an “uncaring bitch” is what you’re going with?

Seriously, show me where she explained the true nature of final days. Show me where she went "guys, hermes action is partly our society fault. Please listen to what I said". Do you punish you kid for stealing from their friend and only give the explanation "stealing is bad, stop it", and refuse to elaborate further when your kid ask why it's bad? Because that's what venat did.

I’m not entirely sure why you’re asking that question other than some attempt at a “gotcha.” We both know she did not explicitly tell the public about Meteion, for the reasons the story states clearly. If you want to discuss her reasoning then sure. But repeating what we already know as if it changes anything is not an argument.

And here I thought we're talking about the Ancients, not other civilizations.

If you can’t see how the fates of the other civilizations would have an impact on the Ancients, then I’ll be frank and say you’re missing a huge chunk of what happened in Endwalker.

[Lyth]

...

I mean, sure, Zodiark will sort out all of your problems for the low low price of all the souls on the star. The Amaurotians very nearly wiped out countless other species for the sake of regaining their lost souls. If Zodiark was a good idea, Venat wouldn't have to expend her energy sealing him away.

In any other game, he would be final boss material. He's just not good enough for this one. Midboss perhaps.

[Garnetiferous]

I mean, sure, Zodiark will sort out all of your problems for the low low price of all the souls on the star. The Amaurotians very nearly wiped out countless other species for the sake of regaining their lost souls. If Zodiark was a good idea, Venat wouldn't have to expend her energy sealing him away.

In any other game, he would be final boss material. He's just not good enough for this one. Midboss perhaps.

Zodiark WAS a good idea. It was the ONLY idea that would have worked with the information and time they had and is the reason why Venat didn't do anything about Hermes. Because his knowledge of dynamis would lead the convocation to the realization that the celestial currents needed to be quickened and that requires a massive amount of dark aspected aether, ie Zodiark. The only energy source they had at the time was themselves so the ancients volunteered to sacrifice themselves. Hythlodaeus's shade in Amaurot tells you this. And the reason Venat sealed Zodiark away wasn't because he existed, it was because the ancients weren't moving forward and trying to turn to him to solve their problems. The problem was the ancients reliance on him not Zodiark himself.

[Alleo]

Again,

I think where story editing would have helped a lot more was cutting down some of the Labyrinthos stuff to show that Venat truly did exhaust her options may have helped this out. Especially with janky montage.

The montage felt emotional at that time but now that I had time to get it all in my head I dont like it that much anymore. Not because of Venat herself (I am overjoyed that my faith in her paid off, especially after being called tempered here on the forum because I still choose to side with Hydaelyn after Shadowbringer) but because it could paint a wrong picture.

We know from Shadowbringers that Venat had talked to the Ascians but could not get through to them thanks to the tempering. And we see that she at least in some ways tried to talk the Ancients out from doing more sacrifices. Which means that she did not just simply follow our plan but that she might have done quite a bit to change it. But in the end the Ancients were not able to let go.

We see these Ancients in the ruins of their city which is imo why I dont like this montage. Time must have passed...the world (after two rounds of sacrifices) should have been fine again, after all this was the point of the second sacrifice. All the future ones were only about getting those that sacrificed themselves back. So imo the real scene was probably in a rebuilt Amaurot where Venat (and maybe her followers) tried to talk them out of the plan to kill the new life.

And the passing of time is imo probably the worst offender of it all. We simply have not a single idea how much time passed. Between our visit to Elpis and the final days there could have been centuries or just a few years...depending on that Venat would have different amounts of time to make her plan. And we dont know how much time passed between the second sacrifice and the restoration of the planet and the planned third sacrifice. Maybe she tried to talk them out of it for days/months/years.

So I find it now really hard to truly judge her. Maybe she had many years and tried everything in her power and nothing worked at the end. After all she would not be looking so sad in that montage if she from the beginning only saw the sundering. For me it looked like she truly wanted to change something but simply could not.

Also I am not so sure about her "killing" by sundering. Every being was sundered...if sundering kills then nothing would be left alive thus no new life could have been reborn. Emet talks about sundering by just making a copy of Ryne. Bascially how I see it: The Ancient person was bascially split into 14 people. Each one of them less powerful than before but still with their memories intact. After all we see on the First that people had knowledge of the Final days and the sundering (cave painting). Or am I missing some ingame information where we got told that sundering kills?